I million workers come to UK: defacto open borders?

[ViolentPanda]

You have to be a bit dubious about the motives of some of these people who seem unable to debate without throwing out all kinds of puerile little jibes.
Violent Panda seems to spend 25 hours a day on here telling people what they can and can't say!

Care to show me some examples of this heinious crime I'm supposed to have committed (real examples, that is, not examples where, if you're drunk, you can interpret my words as meaning what you accuse me of ).

I wonder if he has a secret fetish for dressing up in uniforms.

I had my fill of wearing uniforms in the British army 20-odd years ago, thanks all the same. Anyone who fetishises wearing uniforms has never had to spend time in shirts so itchy you have to iron the inside just to flatten down the fibres enough to make wearing them bearable!

 

[becky p]

Care to show me some examples of this heinious crime I'm supposed to have committed (real examples, that is, not examples where, if you're drunk, you can interpret my words as meaning what you accuse me of ).


I had my fill of wearing uniforms in the British army 20-odd years ago, thanks all the same. Anyone who fetishises wearing uniforms has never had to spend time in shirts so itchy you have to iron the inside just to flatten down the fibres enough to make wearing them bearable!

So you used to like dressing up and giving orders?
Not exactly a tremendous suprise!

 

[Frank1]

I million immigrants

Immigration increases UK population by over 1 million
02 September 2005

Immigration has boosted the UK's population by over one million since 1997, a new report says.

According to think-tanks, net migration had added more than 1.2 million to the UK population in the past seven years, accounting for 81% of the total population growth during that period.

The groups say that that amounts to the population of Birmingham and Nottingham added together and is equivalent to an average growth in population due to immigration of 177,000 each year.

These groups used the Labour government's recently published mid-year population estimates to compile the figures.

The group said that the figures did not include hidden arrivals and those who overstay their visas. It said if these categories totalled at least 30,000, they would being the rate of population increase due to immigration to over 200,000 per year or two million per decade.

The UK Home Office called predictions speculative.

A spokesman for this group said, "The government trumpets the recent fall in asylum numbers but other forms of immigration are now running at five times the level of asylum claims.

"It is now self evident that the failure to integrate our immigrant communities has brought us to a crisis in community relations. With immigration on the present scale it is impossible to achieve effective integration, especially as some immigrants are highly concentrated in particular areas.

"We have reached a milestone. It is now essential to reduce the scale of immigration if we are to have any hope of achieving a reasonably integrated society. This is now the broad approach in Denmark and Holland. It is late in the day in Britain but we must follow their example while there is still time to do so."

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you used to like dressing up and giving orders?
Not exactly a tremendous suprise!

You're not very good at being provocational, are you?

I hate to disillusion you, but as a mere private I took orders, I didn't give them, and the uniform is part of the job, liking or disliking "dressing up" is immaterial. It's pretty daft trying to hide in woodland, for example, if you're wearing bright orange slacks and a yellow shirt, whereas camo allows you to blend in.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Immigration increases UK population by over 1 million
02 September 2005

Immigration has boosted the UK's population by over one million since 1997, a new report says.

According to think-tanks, net migration had added more than 1.2 million to the UK population in the past seven years, accounting for 81% of the total population growth during that period.

The groups say that that amounts to the population of Birmingham and Nottingham added together and is equivalent to an average growth in population due to immigration of 177,000 each year.

These groups used the Labour government's recently published mid-year population estimates to compile the figures.

The group said that the figures did not include hidden arrivals and those who overstay their visas. It said if these categories totalled at least 30,000, they would being the rate of population increase due to immigration to over 200,000 per year or two million per decade.

The UK Home Office called predictions speculative.

A spokesman for this group said, "The government trumpets the recent fall in asylum numbers but other forms of immigration are now running at five times the level of asylum claims.

"It is now self evident that the failure to integrate our immigrant communities has brought us to a crisis in community relations. With immigration on the present scale it is impossible to achieve effective integration, especially as some immigrants are highly concentrated in particular areas.

"We have reached a milestone. It is now essential to reduce the scale of immigration if we are to have any hope of achieving a reasonably integrated society. This is now the broad approach in Denmark and Holland. It is late in the day in Britain but we must follow their example while there is still time to do so."

Could you please either post a link to your source, or at least mention who the source is?

Thanks ever so...

 

[Frank1]

The source is Workpermit.com

 

[wee cough ed]

So you used to like dressing up and giving orders?
Not exactly a tremendous suprise!

I was in the Army forty years ago. Even then we bought vests to wear under the hair shirts.

In my final unit the sergeant major had disobeyed an unlawful order (which involved killing persons) in his previous regiment ... he was in a unit called 22 SAS ... and he did distinguish between lawful and unlawful orders.

He also told us not to take early transfer to the reserve (in order to join police) as the police were a morally inferior service who had lost their way ... loss of individual awareness of the office of independent ministerial officer of the Crown ... acceding to unlawful government control over police ... amalgamation of forces ... accelerated promotion schemes with government set promotion criteria.

His history was that he had served with SAS in the 50s. Left the Army. Served seven years in civil police reaching rank of sergeant. Resigned and rejoined Army. Re-presented for SAS selection and gained selection a second time in his life (but in early middle age) ... served 4.5 years more with SAS before refusing orders to kill persons (see above).

His advice not to join police was the best advice I ever ignored. Civil servants in uniform. Sir Robert Mark had it summed up "We no longer select the most able as police officers but the most malleable to make of them what we will".

I resigned in 1972 after 18 months. I did get a Home Office commendation in 1971 for exposing the flawed research techniques of a sociologist anxious to prove "Institutionalized racism". A myth which refused to be consigned to the idiot bin ... and developed into a mass hysteria by the expedient of denying Stephen Lawrence justice whilst exploiting the tragedy of his death.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The source is Workpermit.com

Thanks.

 

[durruti02]

The source is Workpermit.com

racist anti-immigrant bastards!!

 

[kyser_soze]

A bit like Balders' cry of "LIBERAL SUPREMACIST".

Does this mean we dress up in hessian sheets instead of crisp white ones? Maybe burn some effigies of The Inpendent's masthead?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Does this mean we dress up in hessian sheets instead of crisp white ones? Maybe burn some effigies of The Inpendent's masthead?

TBH, I haven't got a scooby, mate.

Mind you, neither has Balders, however much he assuses people of it.

 

[brasicritique]

TBH, I haven't got a scooby don't we all know it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

TBH, I haven't got a scooby don't we all know it.

I agree with you, brasic. You haven't got a scooby. You're so far from having a scooby you might as well be in the Gobi desert.

Now there's an idea...

 

[exosculate]

I'd like to know what the impact is of mass movement of people, "legal", "illegal" or whatever the source, on the already resident population?

This is the fundamental question which is never scrutinised fully anywhere, it seems to me.

 

[exosculate]

Why do real newbies like franky always appear on immigration threads?

Have the far right got a Jehovah Witness strategy towards immigration threads on bulletin boards?

 

[biff curtains]

no not neutral .. maybe neutral in simple numbers but you need to look past that no .. it means the powers that be are more able to control us ..

That's what I meant. I'm well aware that mass immigration is being used to undermine wages and union organisation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'd like to know what the impact is of mass movement of people, "legal", "illegal" or whatever the source, on the already resident population?

This is the fundamental question which is never scrutinised fully anywhere, it seems to me.

I'd like to know too, but all we're ever going to get is "snapshots" of specific places at specific points in time, research-wise. There's just no way to conduct a unitary project to gather the massive amount of data necessary to even begin to assess the impact of immigration, so we're stuck with these research "snapshots" of specific effects in specific (geographical and social) areas.

The problem with such piecemeal research is while it provides a wealth of data on the specifics of a small segment of info, it also may be "re-interpreted" by "interested parties" (the media, politicians etc) into representing as "fact" the assumptions of those "interested parties", much as the data in the quote in the OP has been "re-interpreted" to suit the Telegraph's political agenda.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

That's what I meant. I'm well aware that mass immigration is being used to undermine wages and union organisation.

or as they say in french: ils viennent manger le pain des francais.

 

[ska invita]

I've made this argument before - if we really want open borders we should applaud the EU expansion and the laws that allow free access to move and work within the EU bloc - I think its a hugely radical step, its blowing nationalism apart - and good ridance.

Yes, its motivated by cheap labour - I get that - and I would like to see more rights and service provided for new migrants - particularly since they bring so much money to the economy, we should pay them back some by provding some kind of social security/state support/stronger legal support for their workers rights.

I think the idea of loose trading blocs within which movement is allowed is overall, in terms of human freedom, a great thing and deserves our support on principle - it would be great, for example, if Latin America could get something like this together - or Africa.

But yes we need to work to stop migrants being fucked over by employers and from falling through the cracks when they hit hard times.

 

[ska invita]

"It is now self evident that the failure to integrate our immigrant communities has brought us to a crisis in community relations. With immigration on the present scale it is impossible to achieve effective integration, especially as some immigrants are highly concentrated in particular areas.

"We have reached a milestone. It is now essential to reduce the scale of immigration if we are to have any hope of achieving a reasonably integrated society. This is now the broad approach in Denmark and Holland. It is late in the day in Britain but we must follow their example while there is still time to do so."

I just dont agree with any of this (I know you didnt say it Frank1 - maybe you agree?)

Community relations are no more in crisis than anywhere else in the globalised world - look at this in LA: Gang warfare between 'blacks'+'hispanics' has gone balistic http://www.guardian.co.uk/Observer/world/story/0,,2036580,00.html

And whats the solution in LA? stop letting people 'in'?

I'm all up for giving up on some imagined National Idenity in which we all have to try and pretend to be the same - fuck it - forget it. Lets just grow up and face the fact that we live on a little planet and ideally we can go and live wherever we want and when we get there we're all going to have to get along as best we can with our differences.

'Integration' is another word for conforming to some archetype - thats bullshit. What we need is to make a new culture made up of whoever is around, not pretend we're all part of a culture that may or may not have existed 50 years ago.

This isnt about government - its about the human race evolving so that we dont feel like we only belong to one little region/nation/race. Sounds like poncy liberal bollocks but thats whats at the heart of all this - people treating people as "Other" becasue they've come from somewhere else.

I couldnt care less if millions more people came here - other than the fact that Britain, like many urbanised places, is highly over populated - my ideal solution would be to see the worlds population halved and much more open borders everywhere.

 

[becky p]

I couldnt care less if millions more people came here - other than the fact that Britain, like many urbanised places, is highly over populated - my ideal solution would be to see the worlds population halved and much more open borders everywhere.

You would like to see the worlds population halved?

The world is not overpopulated but if wealth is concentrated in small areas and more and more people migrate to those areas you have a problem of overpopulation in those areas.
Open borders obviously makes this worse the people arguing for it seem to be saying that they want to add more petrol to the fire.

 

[tbaldwin]

That's what I meant. I'm well aware that mass immigration is being used to undermine wages and union organisation.

I'm glad that more and more people on the left seem to realise this.
If people start to talk about the issue honestly and openly then perhaps it will be an issue that people on the Left will be trusted and respected on by more than the usual 10% of vaguely well meaning people who sort of almost kind of trust them now.....

 

[Giles]

I just dont agree with any of this (I know you didnt say it Frank1 - maybe you agree?)

Community relations are no more in crisis than anywhere else in the globalised world - look at this in LA: Gang warfare between 'blacks'+'hispanics' has gone balistic http://www.guardian.co.uk/Observer/world/story/0,,2036580,00.html

And whats the solution in LA? stop letting people 'in'?

I'm all up for giving up on some imagined National Idenity in which we all have to try and pretend to be the same - fuck it - forget it. Lets just grow up and face the fact that we live on a little planet and ideally we can go and live wherever we want and when we get there we're all going to have to get along as best we can with our differences.

'Integration' is another word for conforming to some archetype - thats bullshit. What we need is to make a new culture made up of whoever is around, not pretend we're all part of a culture that may or may not have existed 50 years ago.

This isnt about government - its about the human race evolving so that we dont feel like we only belong to one little region/nation/race. Sounds like poncy liberal bollocks but thats whats at the heart of all this - people treating people as "Other" becasue they've come from somewhere else.

I couldnt care less if millions more people came here - other than the fact that Britain, like many urbanised places, is highly over populated - my ideal solution would be to see the worlds population halved and much more open borders everywhere.

The problem is that what people want from a community does not work if you have too many peope with totally different views on how to live.

Communities that are more homogenous work better, because people feel that their neighbours are at least vaguely on the same wavelength.

Giles..

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm glad that more and more people on the left seem to realise this.
If people start to talk about the issue honestly and openly then perhaps it will be an issue that people on the Left will be trusted and respected on by more than the usual 10% of vaguely well meaning people who sort of almost kind of trust them now.....

Ah, the auld "people on the Left" schtick. Are you on the left, balders? Because you sound as though you're on the right. In fact, your views wouldn't be out of place with a certain party of the right.

 

[tbaldwin]

Ah, the auld "people on the Left" schtick. Are you on the left, balders? Because you sound as though you're on the right. In fact, your views wouldn't be out of place with a certain party of the right.

I am on the Left in that i want to see a radical redistribution of wealth and power internationally.
Of course for someone with your narrow mind because i dont agree with your views on public spending,crime and migration. You want to write me off as a BNP member Daily Mail reader etc etc etc...It stops you from having to think.

 

[treelover]

I really don't like these constant accusations inferring people support the BNP, etc, because of their views on immigration, its lazy and unproductive. The unprecedented scale of immmigration the UK faces, both legal and illegal, is such that new thinking has to be done on the left if it is not to leave the field open for groups like the BNP. I'm not sure what the amswer is yet, maybe the IWCA approach? , but i do know that shrill accusations of 'wacist' are no help at all.

 

[chilango]

Is it unprecedented?

I dunno.

Bear in mind the rate of emmigration too...what do you wanna do, stop people leaving?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I really don't like these constant accusations inferring people support the BNP, etc, because of their views on immigration, its lazy and unproductive. The unprecedented scale of immmigration the UK faces, both legal and illegal, is such that new thinking has to be done on the left if it is not to leave the field open for groups like the BNP. I'm not sure what the amswer is yet, maybe the IWCA approach? , but i do know that shrill accusations of 'wacist' are no help at all.

Neither are shrill accusations of "wiberal" in leiu of substantive argument.

 

[tbaldwin]

Neither are shrill accusations of "wiberal" in leiu of substantive argument.

But if people support liberal free market policies on migration. I think its fair enough that it should be pointed out.

As ive argued over and over again ...I believe Economic migration makes the world a more unequal place. Those who argue against me argue on the basis of the rights of the individual in a way that i think can only be described as Liberal.
Though sometimes people seem to add a bit of benevolent nationalism as a nightmare topping.

 

[chilango]

Those who argue against me argue on the basis of the rights of the individual in a way that i think can only be described as Liberal.

What????

Arguing for individual liberty and freedom from restriction of movement by the state is ONLY liberal?

So all libertarians are liberals?