Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i've asked; he can't.
Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations
- Thread starter trashpony
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh as i say i'm seeing no evidence of study
Let's give up on this PM. I gave you plenty of chance to pursue an honest debate. But I don't believe for a minute that you want to face the truth. If you can't see that there is an issue here; if you aren't prepared to investigate whether Islamic law justifies non-consensual sex with non-Muslims in conquered territory; or if you honestly think that I have nothing to contribute, then just move on.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
as frogwoman said a minute ago, there is no single islamick law, there are lots of islamick laws. what e.g. osama bin laden believes is islamick law is quite likely to be different from what ayatollah khomeni believes to be islamick law: which again would differ from what suleiman the magnificent believed to be islamick law. the thing is i don't come here to run off and read, it's not a university seminar. i've asked you a couple of times to chuck up your answers to your three questions, and others have asked as well but i'm not seeing much in the way of progress. perhaps this isn't your sort of forum.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I do think that it's simplistic to say that ISIS or whoever have nothing to do with Islam because the head of ISIS has a PhD in it and has clearly studied it in depth, and if you look at any jihadi stuff then they always refer to Quran as explanation for why they do certain things, they always point to what Muhammad or whoever did and speak in that ridiculous 'archaic' style. The religion obviously informs their politics and the way they see themselves and the choices they make as to who/what they agree with and see as justified.
But leaving aside the fact there is absolutely no evidence that a jihadi group was involved in this attack or even that it was politically motivated it's got absolutely nothing to do with how most Muslims think about the religion. I mean there are rabbis who say the same sort of shit about non Jews and most Jews probably aren't even aware of their existence, but because of various geopolitical factors that have made salafism the force that it is that can't be said of Islam, that doesn't mean every Muslim agrees with this bollocks though ffs. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the Cologne attackers did think that this was all right with God but did Marxism say have much to do with why the Comrade Bala guy did what he did? Not really.
You can't just say that every bad thing a Muslim does is sanctioned by Islam when there doesn't seem to be a jihadi or religious motive behind it, although I'd say that a repressive and sexist culture could be part of why they did it, that's not the same as saying they did it because they think God told them to though.
But leaving aside the fact there is absolutely no evidence that a jihadi group was involved in this attack or even that it was politically motivated it's got absolutely nothing to do with how most Muslims think about the religion. I mean there are rabbis who say the same sort of shit about non Jews and most Jews probably aren't even aware of their existence, but because of various geopolitical factors that have made salafism the force that it is that can't be said of Islam, that doesn't mean every Muslim agrees with this bollocks though ffs. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the Cologne attackers did think that this was all right with God but did Marxism say have much to do with why the Comrade Bala guy did what he did? Not really.
You can't just say that every bad thing a Muslim does is sanctioned by Islam when there doesn't seem to be a jihadi or religious motive behind it, although I'd say that a repressive and sexist culture could be part of why they did it, that's not the same as saying they did it because they think God told them to though.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Is Cologne conquered territory now
Your defence of Islam here seems to be that 'only some' Muslim scholars believe that the rape of non-Muslim women is justified under the correct conditions.
Fair enough. That's a defence of sorts, I guess.
No. Point is: was it conquered on NYE?
They drove the forces of the kufar state out of the square. They took the plunder.
Treacle Toes
Time
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
But we know that ISIS for example have interpreted Islamic law to mean that they can do this eg with the yezidi women. So in that case (in ISIS's view, not necessarily anyone else's) the answer is yes but as these attacks don't seem to have a political motive and aren't being carried out by an 'army' (these guys certainly haven't conquered Cologne) and there's no evidence that all the suspects were even Muslim, mainly because they haven't arrested most of them, I dont know why we're discussing why sharia law would allow it tbh.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
as anyone who has visited cologne knows, there is a lot of treasure in the cathedral. gold and silver is plunder, not women's clothes. unless they're a lot of crossdressers. you deserve a kuf or two round the ear for such nonsense.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I'm not defending Islam, just find it bizarre this is being brought up.
Seriously, do you believe there are any devout or practicing Muslims who do NOT "look to" Mohammed?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
So if a drunk driver hit a Muslim or a Jew on Christmas Day would it be sanctioned by Christianity? The fact of it being in a Christian country where alcohol is permitted would certainly go some way to explain why it happened, because alcohol is a traditional part of these celebrations and originally had a religiously sanctioned use. But you could not just open the Bible for an explanation of why it happened 
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
No but what I'm saying is that ISIS and Salafists take different lessons from his life than many/most other Muslims. Just like some Bible thumper in the American deep south is going to take different lessons from the new testament than the idea that jesus was a sandal wearing hippy who told everyone to love each other.
bimble
floofy
I for one am glad you've appeared Thomsy.
I'm not sure why you think religious texts are the relevant thing here though. Especially as you've been living in the Middle East for years I'd be really curious to hear about what you learnt outside on the streets and chatting to women etc that you feel may have a bearing on this rather than what Marx thought of the Koran.
Take for instance the old testament: Deuteronomy is all about how God wants us to smite every other tribe we meet, even unto their little children. Then Leviticus commands that 'the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and though shalt love him as thyself'.
"At different times , and in the service of different needs, believers listened to different moral imperatives. Christians and Jews have looked to the Bible to justify slavery and to deem it evil, to condemn gay people to death and to ordain them as priests" [Kenan Malik - the quest for a Moral Compass]
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's always nice to stand out from the crowd
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no indeed, you'd need to know where in the good book to look.So if a drunk driver hit a Muslim or a Jew on Christmas Day would it be sanctioned by Christianity? The fact of it being in a Christian country where alcohol is permitted would certainly go some way to explain why it happened, because alcohol is a traditional part of these celebrations and originally had a religiously sanctioned use. But you could not just open the Bible for an explanation of why it happened
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
That's exactly what I have been trying to say (not very well)
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I have read stuff by islamists yeah. But salafism is something that's only gained prominence in the last century or so and a lot of stuff I've seen from them is along the lines of why don't they listen to / believe the same total bollocks as I do, why do they do stuff which to me is just an 'innovation'. So there is obviously many different interpretations of Islam which the Salafists have basically just dismissed, stuff borrowed from the surrounding culture etc.
I have said:
Islamic doctrine defines itself as being “at war” with non-Muslims.
Islamic law asserts as legitimate (in fact, according to some authorities it actually “obligates” upon the Muslim commander) the taking of booty from conquered non-Muslim territory.
Women are asserted to be part of the legal booty. They may be taken as slaves.
The regulations as to which slaves you can force sex with are explicit and detailed.
These things are contained variously in the Muslim holy books, the traditions of Mohammed, and the clarifications of the early Jurists.
Frankly, the precise Holy source barely matters in this NYE case. Every Muslim knows these things. They are the staples of Muslim culture. Everyone in the square that night knew them. They imbibe the model of Mohammed and his Rightly-Guided successors from the cradle on.
But as you say, none of these things have any bearing on events in Cologne – because no one has yet discovered the ISIS mastermind who plotted it all on facebook.
Were the Cologne events halal? As you say, different people think different things.
PS. Some jurists will dispute some details within the whole. Almost none dispute the essential features. In any case, the militants can take their pick. They intimidate those who offer an alternative exegesis. The most aggressive interpretation then becomes the norm.
bimble
floofy
thanks . took me ages to find the bits
bimble
floofy
How does that help with Tahrir Square though? Which is apparently the closest thing we know about.
Do you really not get this?
Let’s assume that the conditions in Cologne were not halal. I am quite prepared to accept that the conditions were probably not fully met.
Do you think that is the point?
The brave lads in Cologne did not ‘do it’ because Islamic law “made” them to do it. They did it because they wanted to do so; because their religious and cultural upbringing had predisposed them to feel it was reasonable to do it; because they did not feel guilt or shame in doing it; because, on the contrary, their upbringing had encouraged them to believe there was virtue and even nobility in what they did. There is a Jihad in all things. Jihad is virtuous.
On NYE, they took the square.
Those brave lads and men in the Cologne square have grown up being taught contempt for, and hostility to, non-Muslims. They have been told that if Muslims capture non-Muslim territory, they can take the movable wealth and enslave / enjoy the women.
Do you really not think that has any pertinence? Do you not think it influenced them in any way?
I think it was an act of violence and self-gratification. And I think it was also what we have come to call “hate crime”.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so where do you stand on the theft of clothing?
bimble
floofy
What if you replace 'non muslims' with the word women? That would be very crude too, but (in my opinion) closer to the truth.
Hi Bimble.
As you may know, there are three main distinctions of status at the heart of Islamic doctrine: Muslim / non-Muslim; male / female; free / slave.
Each of those is a boundary which has to be policed. And policed, if necessary, with violence.
That’s not the whole answer, of course. The instability in the Arab world has so many ramifications. But do you get what I mean?
I’m sorry this is such a cryptic reply.
bimble
floofy
Ok . I guess my interest is mostly in what you call the 'distinction of status' between male / female.
That also seems to me the most relevant thing here, as it allows us to think about Tahrir Square as well, which is the closest parallel we know of for this behaviour?
In reports from there I read that having a veil on made no difference at all.
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frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I agree that hate and contempt for women and non muslims could have been a big part in what they did, but in your earlier posts you seemed to be arguing that religious texts sanctioned it and its something that, every muslim grows up believing. I dont think thats the case, i think many muslims only go to mosque couple times a year and use it as a social scene much like synagogues or churches. If islam is as intrinsicly violent as you're making out why have violent ideologies like salafism only risen to prominence in the last few decades (leading them to constantly denounce 'innovation' etc)? I'm sure many people have come to have such a contempt - in which case why don't we see more of this rather than less?
You lose an argument, get shown up as ignorant of the matter in hand, and then try to threaten me with violence from the safety of your desk? You're a fine, brave fella.
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