Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[ViolentPanda]

Yes. That is all. And a refusal by the well-meaning 'left' to even discuss / admit of this is a fucking disaster, seems to me.

It doesn't appear to have been "the left" in Germany who've been the prime movers in not discussing this, but rather the politicians and bureaucrats higher up the chain.

 

[toggle]

I was thinking of Genovese when I first heard these reports. There's a book debunking it all that I haven't read.

Apparently debunking it anyway.

without anymore info, that's probably discussion of the bystander effect theories that came out of discussion of that case?

you can discuss why people ignore this kind of incident and theorise and debunk on that. but not that people ignore attacks against women

 

[bluescreen]

There does seem to have been some sort of hapless attempt to put a lid on the story.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

without anymore info, that's probably discussion of the bystander effect theories that came out of discussion of that case?

you can discuss why people ignore this kind of incident and theorise and debunk on that. but not that people ignore attacks against women

I don't want to derail the thread but here's a link.

Haven't even read it myself only heard about the book!

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/01/3...se-and-the-myth-of-the-heartless-city/400622/

 

[Casually Red]

There does seem to have been some sort of hapless attempt to put a lid on the story.

Which will lead to more distrust of official assurances about this that and the other trying to calm the situation. It'll all just sound like more lies. And in the case of their mayor...code of conduct woman...self serving lies . Because she was..is..fanatically pro immigration . And this hurts her quite seriously politically .

 

[BigMoaner]

As the German government, you could either say "ok, we've let a few wrong uns in through by being well meaning. We will work hard at preventing this in the future and will treat all crime and criminals with the rule of the law" or you can go with "lets be really worried about a racist backlash and ignore/minimalize /don't talk about it/rationalise".

The second option maybe more well meaning but I think the first option is more TRUTHFUL and just as likely to shut up the right than the second option.

 

[bimble]

What those percentage breakdowns don't tell you (as any decent analysis should) is that all those linkages are bollocks excuses with no foothold in reality - they're just tales sex cases tell to "justify" their behaviour to themselves and their peers. Read a case study of sex offenders in any criminal justice system, even those with poor histories of policing sex crimes, and they're full of this shit.

That makes perfect sense of those stats from Egypt , - yes, they are excuses proffered by perps.

But maybe they are excuses based on / informed by an unspeakable thing we call .. culture.
Would you as happily file away as 'justification to themselves & their peers' those same excuses (the way they walked, their make-up etc) if the excuses were offered up by some arsehole who was born down the road from you? I don't know. I'm just frightened by the silence.

 

[elbows]

That makes perfect sense of those stats from Egypt , - yes, they are excuses proffered by perps.

But maybe they are excuses based on / informed by an unspeakable thing we call .. culture.
Would you as happily file away as 'justification to themselves & their peers' those same excuses (the way they walked, their make-up etc) if the excuses were offered up by some arsehole who was born down the road from you? I don't know. I'm just frightened by the silence.

What silence do you mean exactly, who exactly is not making the noises you'd hope or expect?

 

[toggle]

I don't want to derail the thread but here's a link.

Haven't even read it myself only heard about the book!

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/01/3...se-and-the-myth-of-the-heartless-city/400622/

which disputes the numbers. not that people witnessed and did fuck all.

 

[bluescreen]

Someone mentioned Oktoberfest molesting upthread. Does anyone know how much worse this year's NYE assaults were than usual? I'm guessing a fair bit (even though probably there'd have traditionally been a fair bit of grabbing, groping and pickpocketing) because the polis seem to have been totally blindsided by this.

 

[BigMoaner]

Moral relativism. You know its far less wrong for a Jamaican in trenchtown, say, to be grossly homophobic than a WASP who owns his own business in Guildford. Its bullshit. You either apply the principle fairly across cultures and nations or the principle doesn't exist at all.

 

[bimble]

What silence do you mean exactly, who exactly is not making the noises you'd hope or expect?

Moral relativism. You know its far less wrong for a Jamaican in trenchtown, say, to be grossly homophobic than a WASP who owns his own business in Guildford. Its bullshit. You either apply the principle fairly across cultures and nations or the principle doesn't exist at all.

What he said. Either it doesn't exist at all or we are wishing very very hard that it doesn't, and in the meantime we refuse to discuss the whole area and leave the stage to the far right.

 

[Casually Red]

As the German government, you could either say "ok, we've let a few wrong uns in through by being well meaning. We will work hard at preventing this in the future and will treat all crime and criminals with the rule of the law" or you can go with "lets be really worried about a racist backlash and ignore/minimalize /don't talk about it/rationalise".

The second option maybe more well meaning but I think the first option is more TRUTHFUL and just as likely to shut up the right than the second option.

The second option deprives the right, to some extent, of a void to fill . But the fact is if your letting in a million people a year you simply don't have the resources to fulfill your promises .

The first option is simply even worse. And naturally plenty on the left prefer it . It's interesting ...very sad but compelling...to see this dynamic and thought process in motion . it's precisely how their counterparts in the establishment , churches etc ended up covering up for sexual abusers. Better not to talk about an " appaling vista ", sweep iy under the carpet . It's a very similar thought process. Deny, obfuscate, nit pick to oblivion, ridicule, attempt to enforce silence through smears, fears, such talk inadvertently or deliberately aiding the enemy and all that . It's a human condition sadly .

 

[bluescreen]

The second option deprives the right, to some extent, of a void to fill . But the fact is if your letting in a million people a year you simply don't have the resources to fulfill your promises .

The first option is simply even worse. And naturally plenty on the left prefer it . It's interesting ...very sad but compelling...to see this dynamic and thought process in motion . it's precisely how their counterparts in the establishment , churches etc ended up covering up for sexual abusers. Better not to talk about an " appaling vista ", sweep iy under the carpet . It's a very similar thought process. Deny, obfuscate, nit pick to oblivion, ridicule, attempt to enforce silence through smears, fears, such talk inadvertently or deliberately aiding the enemy and all that . It's a human condition sadly .

Interesting. I hadn't thought of it in those terms: let's protect the reputation of the institution as a first priority. Hmm.

 

[BigMoaner]

I think you got the options the wrong way around?

 

[elbows]

Moral relativism. You know its far less wrong for a Jamaican in trenchtown, say, to be grossly homophobic than a WASP who owns his own business in Guildford. Its bullshit. You either apply the principle fairly across cultures and nations or the principle doesn't exist at all.

Indeed the principals that matter don't live up to their own potential unless they are universal.

Rather than using that shit to give wrongheaded ranking scores of how 'wrong' something is, the details can be used to understand more about why things are the way they are in some cultures, an explanation not an excuse or a let off. But I guess if that path of understanding generates too much empathy for the person with the dodgy attitudes along the way, thats where the concern that do-gooders who understand will go soft on them and look the other way might be bubbling up from.

 

[BigMoaner]

Fuck the options, they're both shit.

 

[Teenage Cthulhu]

which disputes the numbers. not that people witnessed and did fuck all.

The article is pretty uncomfortable reading. Especially the bit about marketing and how they use her photo. Like a thing not a person.

 

[BigMoaner]

Indeed the principals that matter don't live up to their own potential unless they are universal.

Rather than using that shit to give wrongheaded ranking scores of how 'wrong' something is, the details can be used to understand more about why things are the way they are in some cultures, an explanation not an excuse or a let off. But I guess if that path of understanding generates too much empathy for the person with the dodgy attitudes along the way, thats where the concern that do-gooders who understand will go soft on them and look the other way might be bubbling up from.

I think you can seek to understand, but opposition to those attitudes should always start with criticism, the idea that its wrong. Some just seek to understand without actually standing foe the principle because they do a load of understanding and no criticising. Jamacian homophobia is rank and the men who do it are rank when they are doing it.

 

[frogwoman]

When I was a teenager going out with an ex girlfriend, in one day within the space of a couple of hours we were flashedby random creepy guy and later on chased by a gang of children and teenagers with sticks who tried to beat us up while chasing us around shouting homophobic abuse. So yeah it does happen.

 

[bimble]

I think you can seek to understand, but opposition to those attitudes should always start with criticism, the idea that its wrong. Some just seek to understand without actually standing foe the principle because they do a load of understanding and no criticising. Jamacian homophobia is rank and the men who do it are rank when they are doing it.

Yes. First understand then criticise, but don't totally do a blind deaf monkey on the whole thing. I spent well over a year in jamaica incidentally, having those exact conversations, about how England is full of Batty boys, and maybe it didn't get anywhere at all but you know, at least I learnt some stuff.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That makes perfect sense of those stats from Egypt , - yes, they are excuses proffered by perps.

But maybe they are excuses based on / informed by an unspeakable thing we call .. culture.
Would you as happily file away as 'justification to themselves & their peers' those same excuses (the way they walked, their make-up etc) if the excuses were offered up by some arsehole who was born down the road from you? I don't know. I'm just frightened by the silence.

The interesting (to me, as it's one of the fields where my interests lie) thing is that those excuses don't vary much between cultures. You'll find them tending toward being proffered equally often in Northern Europe, South America, North Africa and south (and south-east) Asia, across ethnicities and across religions. Men everywhere excuse (to others, and to themselves) their predations through finding a way to blame the victim.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Moral relativism. You know its far less wrong for a Jamaican in trenchtown, say, to be grossly homophobic than a WASP who owns his own business in Guildford. Its bullshit. You either apply the principle fairly across cultures and nations or the principle doesn't exist at all.

Actually cultural relativism, but I take your point.
The fact is there's no excuse for relativism, just as there's no excuse for people who should know better, to take the media reportage as gospel without supporting evidence.

 

[bimble]

The interesting (to me, as it's one of the fields where my interests lie) thing is that those excuses don't vary much between cultures. You'll find them tending toward being proffered equally often in Northern Europe, South America, North Africa and south (and south-east) Asia, across ethnicities and across religions. Men everywhere excuse (to others, and to themselves) their predations through finding a way to blame the victim.

Yes. But why was I pretty much happy to choose to walk home through the dark park alone tonight ? Because i calculated that the risks were relatively small.I would like a world where every woman walking alone after dark could calculate that same way.
That is not the case.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What he said. Either it doesn't exist at all or we are wishing very very hard that it doesn't, and in the meantime we refuse to discuss the whole area and leave the stage to the far right.

I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. Even in the most fevered dreams of the Euro-right, there are very few "on the left" who will avoid discussing such matters to avoid giving cultural offence/for reasons of so-called "political correctness".
It's not even the case that we yet know what sort of conversation to have, either, with regard to events in Germany recently.

 

[bimble]

I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. Even in the most fevered dreams of the Euro-right, there are very few "on the left" who will avoid discussing such matters to avoid giving cultural offence/for reasons of so-called "political correctness".
It's not even the case that we yet know what sort of conversation to have, either, with regard to events in Germany recently.

Ok. Let us wait say a month or so, see if anyone is arrested or convicted for the assaults. The whole conversation "on the left" about 'such matters' can be delayed until then, right? Meanwhile..

 

[bluescreen]

I'm sorry, but that's bollocks. Even in the most fevered dreams of the Euro-right, there are very few "on the left" who will avoid discussing such matters to avoid giving cultural offence/for reasons of so-called "political correctness".
It's not even the case that we yet know what sort of conversation to have, either, with regard to events in Germany recently.

That's the thing, though, isn't it, that we don't yet know what sort of conversation to have?

 

[elbows]

Ok. Let us wait say a month or so, see if anyone is arrested or convicted for the assaults. The whole conversation "on the left" about 'such matters' can be delayed until then, right? Meanwhile..

Thanks for the explanation about what the unwelcome silence you referred to earlier was.

In response to that and this latter post of yours, I would ask what exactly you propose to fill the stage with in the meantime, in the absence of a better collection of foundation facts?

edit - yes it seems I'm just making the same point as those asking what conversation to have.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes. But why was I pretty much happy to choose to walk home through the dark park alone tonight ? Because i calculated that the risks were relatively small.I would like a world where every woman walking alone after dark could calculate that same way.

We all would, I'd hope.
I'd emphasise, however, that while a healthy attitude toward women is a keystone to any feeling of security you had alongside your risk assessment, it's nowhere near the be-all and end-all. We tend to ignore the influence of factors such as built environment (some places are less "crime-amenable" than others - by design or by good fortune - for example), personal attitude and how that feeds into projected "body language" and how that is "read" by potential predators, and a hundred and one other things in-between those two poles.

 

[treelover]

Anti-fa are planning a massive counter protest to the Right Wing one on Sat, may look to public they are defending the monsters, which of course, most aren't.