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How would you prioritise the vaccine schedule?

Lucky nobody on here has done that then.

FFS calm down, there aren't 'several people on here' doing that, nobody has said medical exemptions aren't OK, and I gave some friendly advice. Stop being so touchy on this.

You gave me friendly, baseless, unsolicited advice to the effect that my existing medical exemption (it's not actually an exemption because the 'medically exempt' category doesn't exist and has never needed to because all medicine is optional) was likely to be bogus. Yeah, that makes me fucking touchy. Undermining people's experiences tends to have that effect.
 
No vaccine, no travel, no vaccine then can't attend school, no vaccine, it's a condition of your employment and so forth.

This sounds like a social nightmare and I'm amazed to read such a suggestion here. It would cause unbelievable conflict, plus what else can we then start sanctioning people for? I'd like to see sanctions of the kind you suggest for drink driving or landlordism, so if we did it for vaccination then where next?

I'm horrified how dictatorially so many people are approaching this.
 
Several people on here seem unwilling or unable to draw that distinction, sadly.
I don't think anyone has said that though - I'd be surprised if anyone has suggested making it compulsory for people who have a history of serious adverse consequences from vaccines. It's clear that there are some who cannot get vaccinations, or certain vaccinations, due to medical reasons - and the whole point of ensuring others to get vaccinated is to protect those people through herd immunity.
 
I'm horrified how dictatorially so many people are approaching this.
Well it’s quite clear that given a free reign there's enough twats in the world to fuck things up for everyone else, so quite frankly I reckon a mildly benevolent dictatorship is the way to go.
 
You gave me friendly, baseless, unsolicited advice to the effect that my existing medical exemption (it's not actually an exemption because the 'medically exempt' category doesn't exist and has never needed to because all medicine is optional) was likely to be bogus. Yeah, that makes me fucking touchy. Undermining people's experiences tends to have that effect.

No, I suggested that you should check about this particular vaccine as things change, as you yourself said it was a long time ago and the doctor had retired, nothing about it being 'bogus' or denying your experience. Which you then said you were going to get checked anyway FFS. You seem to be getting a load of things mixed up, but anyway it's all a weird derail, I won't comment again.

E2A: And apologies if it upset you or you felt like it was unwelcome or unfriendly, that wasn't intended.
 
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I think it’s impossible to really come up with a list that everyone is going to be happy with. But for me I would have

  • NHS staff and everyone who comes into hospital
  • All key workers who have any type of F2F contact with others; social care, charity support workers, teachers, supermarket staff etc etc
  • anybody that is clinically vulnerable
  • older adults (anybody over 60)
  • everyone else
 
No, I suggested that you should check about this particular vaccine as things change, as you yourself said it was a long time ago and the doctor had retired, nothing about it being 'bogus' or denying your experience. Which you then said you were going to get checked anyway FFS. You seem to be getting a load of things mixed up, but anyway it's all a weird derail, I won't comment again.

E2A: And apologies if it upset you or you felt like it was unwelcome or unfriendly, that wasn't intended.

I was mostly upset about MickiQ comparing my situation to people who make no effort at all to help protect others. You probably got caught in the penumbra of that. Happy to shake hands on a draw and move on.
 
Well it’s quite clear that given a free reign there's enough twats in the world to fuck things up for everyone else ....

But isn't this the same for like, everything?

I mean, I'm not disagreeing that dictatorship (benign or otherwise) would be an effective solution to many social problems .. but it is a solution with clear and present dangers beyond the deaths associated with a(nother) disease running rampant through society.

Anyway. I have noticed a few commentators in the various media who would normally be strongly pro-choice and pro-bodily-autonomy becoming quite pro-compulsion (or at least pro-coercion) on this matter.
 
I think it’s impossible to really come up with a list that everyone is going to be happy with. But for me I would have
  • NHS staff and everyone who comes into hospital
  • All key workers who have any type of F2F contact with others; social care, charity support workers, teachers, supermarket staff etc etc
  • anybody that is clinically vulnerable
  • older adults (anybody over 60)
  • everyone else

What's good about that list is that the 'everyone who comes into hospital' and the 'everyone that is clinically vulnerable' bits of your list should cover pretty much everyone who is seriously vulnerable/those with underlying conditions -- two of the higher-up categories already in the official priority list.
 
You gave me friendly, baseless, unsolicited advice to the effect that my existing medical exemption (it's not actually an exemption because the 'medically exempt' category doesn't exist and has never needed to because all medicine is optional) was likely to be bogus. Yeah, that makes me fucking touchy. Undermining people's experiences tends to have that effect.
You're all over the place on this Frank - even in this most recent post you say you have an exemption but it isn't really an exemption.

Maybe if you had made a rather more clear and complete statement of your circumstances in the first place ("I was previously advised not to have further vaccinations because of a mis-reaction, but when my time comes I'll get proper up-to-date advice") instead of the bollocks you actually wrote, you might not have got some of the reactions ( :thumbs: ) you did.

Or you could even try not making everything all about you all the time.
 
Anyway. I have noticed a few commentators in the various media who would normally be strongly pro-choice and pro-bodily-autonomy becoming quite pro-compulsion (or at least pro-coercion) on this matter.

At least some of the reasons why that's the case relate to vaccine-refuseniks though. Utter twats**, in other words.

**If they're conspiracist loons, I mean, obviously. Not those who genuinely can't take vaccines for medical reasons.


I oppose compulsion because of the risk of counterproductivity, and the risk of fuelling conspiricist twattery :mad: about vaccines.

I also don't think that there's much if any risk of full-on vaccine compulsion actually happening.
 
The other thing to say about prioritizing the vaccination programme for those who need it most (whatever specific criteria we pick, because that isn't immediately obvious) is that it has to be balanced with the actual logistical practicalities of administering it.

For example, if village halls are to be used in areas where GP surgeries or other dedicated medical facilities are too widely spread for people to easily access, it would seem better to vaccinate everyone in the village at once, rather than do the over 70s first, then come back a month later for the over 60s etc.
 
This sounds like a social nightmare and I'm amazed to read such a suggestion here. It would cause unbelievable conflict, plus what else can we then start sanctioning people for? I'd like to see sanctions of the kind you suggest for drink driving or landlordism, so if we did it for vaccination then where next?

I'm horrified how dictatorially so many people are approaching this.
All societies sanction people to get them to obey the rules, be that not killing your neighbour or going through a red light, there has always been a debate about where the line is drawn and different people have different opinions on what is and isn't acceptable when it comes to balancing peoples rights and responsibilities. Yours is different from mine, OK neither of us get to make the decision either way. As for what you'd like to see people sanctioned for, To a real extent drink drivers do get sanctioned by society, fine and ban not withstanding, it's harder and far more expensive to get insurance for example which often has an impact on their finances and work opportunities. As for being a landlord (not a popular group here) what would be the justification for imposing personal restrictions on individual landlords? something that is not a crime nor does it directly or indirectly threaten the lives of other citizens. If society ever reachs a point at which it wishes to discourage private landlords then the means to do so is via progressive taxation not individual persecution.

This is also an important point. Anything that looks like compulsion or coercion will make the conspiracist narratives look relevant, and do more harm than good.
Inded a very good point but the conspiraloons do seem to be having a field day as it is.
 
All societies sanction people to get them to obey the rules, be that not killing your neighbour or going through a red light, there has always been a debate about where the line is drawn and different people have different opinions on what is and isn't acceptable when it comes to balancing peoples rights and responsibilities. Yours is different from mine, OK neither of us get to make the decision either way.

What we're actually talking about is making a medical procedure compulsory, or putting social obstructions on people for not having it. If that occurred, (and especially if it received wide support) IMO it would set a really frightening precedent. This particular instance is about physical health, but if we admit compulsion and coercion there, how long till mental health is treated the same way? Which tbh is anyway beside the point that individual bodily autonomy isn't something we can or should just wave aside.

As for what you'd like to see people sanctioned for /...

OK I was sort of being facetious .. and yet .. eg drink drivers almost certainly cause more provable, direct and indirect harm and death than antivaxxers have ever done with their stupid bullshit. And it's very arguable that so in real terms do landlords - especially really shitty ones, of which there are many thousands.
 
This sounds like a social nightmare and I'm amazed to read such a suggestion here. It would cause unbelievable conflict, plus what else can we then start sanctioning people for? I'd like to see sanctions of the kind you suggest for drink driving or landlordism, so if we did it for vaccination then where next?

I'm horrified how dictatorially so many people are approaching this.

I'd like it to be avoided. However, I can see it coming for international travel certainly. And if I were in a place like New Zealand or South Korea, say, I'm not sure I'd be opposed to it. People could still be given a choice of sorts (with exemptions for those unable to do it, hopefully) - get vaccinated or accept compulsory quarantine for two weeks. Tbh compared to the restrictions in place around the world since March, it doesn't seem that draconian to me. You used to need vaccine certificates to get travel visas to lots of places.
 
What we're actually talking about is making a medical procedure compulsory, or putting social obstructions on people for not having it. If that occurred, (and especially if it received wide support) IMO it would set a really frightening precedent. This particular instance is about physical health, but if we admit compulsion and coercion there, how long till mental health is treated the same way? Which tbh is anyway beside the point that individual bodily autonomy isn't something we can or should just wave aside.



OK I was sort of being facetious .. and yet .. eg drink drivers almost certainly cause more provable, direct and indirect harm and death than antivaxxers have ever done with their stupid bullshit. And it's very arguable that so in real terms do landlords - especially really shitty ones, of which there are many thousands.


Mental health is already treated that way.
 
Mental health is already treated that way.

Yeah fair enough.

However in order to make a medication compulsory there's a lot of paperwork to do, it's not just a matter of course (and it's still highly problematic for a variety of reasons). Plus not taking meds doesn't by itself bar anyone from particular jobs (the condition the meds are for may create its own issues wrt employment, but that's obviously not the same)
 
Agree it’s highly problematic.
& some paperwork is needed, altho the covid rules removed some of it already.

Is there any other area where patients are compelled to take treatment against their will?
 
Do people think health and social care workers should have to have it? And if them, then what about other key workers? Especially if it turns out that having the vaccine lessens the likelihood of you passing the virus on.

(At the moment I think you have to have some vaccines (like Hep B), as well as be tested for some things (HIV) to work in healthcare. I say I think as I'm not 100% sure it's do it or lose your job, but it is presented in that way. Anyone know for sure?)
 
Do people think health and social care workers should have to have it? And if them, then what about other key workers? Especially if it turns out that having the vaccine lessens the likelihood of you passing the virus on.
My dad is visited by a care worker twice a day. If that worker were offered the vaccine and refused it and later found to have contracted covid while continuing to care for very old and ill people? Put it this way, I would not be happy.

While I do understand people objecting to compulsion, you also have to look at it the other way. Surely we don't have an unlimited right to put others at risk. We have responsibilities towards each other, and that can include taking a vaccine we're not keen on taking. I prefer to frame it as a social duty, which is how I see it, and hope that enough people will see it that way that there aren't problems. It will be a sorry state of affairs if that doesn't happen.
 
Do people think health and social care workers should have to have it? And if them, then what about other key workers? Especially if it turns out that having the vaccine lessens the likelihood of you passing the virus on.

(At the moment I think you have to have some vaccines (like Hep B), as well as be tested for some things (HIV) to work in healthcare. I say I think as I'm not 100% sure it's do it or lose your job, but it is presented in that way. Anyone know for sure?)

Yeah, I'd definitely make it obligatory for patient facing roles (excepting medical trained obviously). A friend of mine was an overnight carer for extremely disabled children and refused to have the chickenpox vaccine. They didn't sack her but moved her to a receptionist job.

William of Walworth - yes, I would, personally give less priority to people with pre-existing conditions unless they have to go into hospital or they're a key worker who can't work from home. I can self isolate, but teachers, etc, can't. I'd happily be moved down in the queue to let them go before me.
 
Yeah, I'd definitely make it obligatory for patient facing roles (excepting medical trained obviously). A friend of mine was an overnight carer for extremely disabled children and refused to have the chickenpox vaccine. They didn't sack her but moved her to a receptionist job.
That's probably a good idea for the healthcare sector, although if lots of people opted out they'd have major staffing issues. I suppose the employer could defend a decision to move someone like this on health and safety grounds, given the risk to patients. Usual caveat around those who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons.
 
That's probably a good idea for the healthcare sector, although if lots of people opted out they'd have major staffing issues. I suppose the employer could defend a decision to move someone like this on health and safety grounds, given the risk to patients. Usual caveat around those who cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons.

Stoopid predictive text says medical trained but I meant medically exempt too.

I don't really see any other option than making it compulsory for f2f roles in healthcare.
 
My dad is visited by a care worker twice a day. If that worker were offered the vaccine and refused it and later found to have contracted covid while continuing to care for very old and ill people? Put it this way, I would not be happy.

While I do understand people objecting to compulsion, you also have to look at it the other way. Surely we don't have an unlimited right to put others at risk. We have responsibilities towards each other, and that can include taking a vaccine we're not keen on taking. I prefer to frame it as a social duty, which is how I see it, and hope that enough people will see it that way that there aren't problems. It will be a sorry state of affairs if that doesn't happen.

A public education campaign based on exactly the sort of things you're saying here would likely be better for vaccine uptake rates than any form of compulsion. Social responsibility may be a tough sell in a country where people have been encouraged for decades to act against it for their own enrichment or amusement but looking at the numbers who have complied with, and generally supported covid restrictions and rules thus far, it's clearly not extinct in the wild just yet.
 
Stoopid predictive text says medical trained but I meant medically exempt too.

I don't really see any other option than making it compulsory for f2f roles in healthcare.
I agree - if you work in that sector by definition you have to accept that the balance tips in favour of the patients. I took it as read that you'd support medical exemptions by the way - as virtually everyone does. :)
 
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