How will you vote in the EU Referendum: Post financial waterboarding edition

[MochaSoul]

No State will support the working class.

Funny you should say that... when you're so willing to leave it to the EU to protect your labour rights. It's as if the coffee wasn't there.

 

[cesare]

Funny you should say that... when you're so willing to leave it to the EU to protect your labour rights. It's as if the coffee wasn't there.

Show me, and quote it please, where I said I was willing to leave it to the EU to protect labour rights. Go on, fucking do it.

 

[MochaSoul]

Show me, and quote it please, where I said I was willing to leave it to the EU to protect labour rights. Go on, fucking do it.

Oh so what does it mean to be pro-European because of labour rights when the same sad Europe ditches those of other people's within its reach?

 

[cesare]

Oh so what does it mean to be pro-European because of labour rights when the same sad Europe ditches those of other people's within its reach?

I'm. Not. Pro. European.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

To those people I say: I agree.

Good.

That's better, imo.

To those arguing that EU laws make no difference, I say that this is a a better response. They clearly do make some difference, and that shouldn't be the argument. You'll lose that argument with many people.

 

[cesare]

I'm not shifting from "No but with concerns" to avid EU protagonist btw. But my memory is long enough to recall the workplace pre-EU employment directives and I'm certain that's where the Tories will want us to go back to.

Just by way of a fucking reminder.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm. Not. Pro. European.

don't worry, you'll get better

 

[cesare]

don't worry, you'll get better

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm. Not. Pro. European.

I am.

I'm just not pro-EU.

 

[MochaSoul]

Just by way of a fucking reminder.

Okay.

 

[cesare]

I am.

I'm just not pro-EU.

Difficult to be anti Europe when we're geographically part of it.

 

[danny la rouge]

Difficult to be anti Europe when we're geographically part of it.

Indeed. But I think it's worth saying that the project that some people think they signed up to - a Europe of cooperation, of solidarity, of mutual aid, of democratic institutions we can all be part of, etc - is a good and worthwhile project.

It's just that the EU has demonstrated that it isn't it.

 

[Blagsta]

They haven't really, Major got a lot of opt outs, then Blair overturned them, and Cameron hasn't yet brought them back. They're currently wanting to opt out of the working time directive and agency workers' directive - as you well know

The working time directive is already voluntary. Many employers make you opt out of it if you want a job.

 

[Pickman's model]

Indeed. But I think it's worth saying that the project that some people think they signed up to - a Europe of cooperation, of solidarity, of mutual aid, of democratic institutions we can all be part of, etc - is a good and worthwhile project.

It's just that the EU has demonstrated that it isn't it.

yeh but that's no great surprise given the governments of the constituent members

 

[cesare]

The working time directive is already voluntary. Many employers make you opt out of it if you want a job.

Not all of it - that's just the limit on the average working week where there's an opt out/opt back in. There are also the rest breaks and holiday entitlement and pay etc as part of that directive.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not all of it - that's just the limit on the average working week where there's an opt out/opt back in. There are also the rest breaks and holiday entitlement and pay etc as part of that directive.

yeh they didn't make it 60 pages of closely-typed impenetrable text solely to set some limits on the working week.

 

[cesare]

Indeed. But I think it's worth saying that the project that some people think they signed up to - a Europe of cooperation, of solidarity, of mutual aid, of democratic institutions we can all be part of, etc - is a good and worthwhile project.

It's just that the EU has demonstrated that it isn't it.

I think the EU has demonstrated that it's no more exempt from the effects of neo liberalism and capitalism than any other State.

 

[cesare]

yeh they didn't make it 60 pages of closely-typed impenetrable text solely to set some limits on the working week.

You counted the pages

 

[Blagsta]

Not all of it - that's just the limit on the average working week where there's an opt out/opt back in. There are also the rest breaks and holiday entitlement and pay etc as part of that directive.

Fairynuff, I'm not aware of the details of those bits. I do know that agencies make you opt out of the limit on working hours.

 

[cesare]

Fairynuff, I'm not aware of the details of those bits. I do know that agencies make you opt out of the limit on working hours.

They can't stop you opting back in again though.

 

[danny la rouge]

I think the EU has demonstrated that it's no more exempt from the effects of neo liberalism and capitalism than any other State.

Well, that's hardly surprising, since it was a capitalist club from the beginning, and neoliberalism was written into the currency rules.

What has been shocking has been the vindictive way that Greece has been punished. These measures are punitive not economic. And the way that democracy has just been disregarded.

 

[chilango]

As I've said before on this debate, I see my "national identity/citizenship" (yuk) as "European" rather than British or Welsh or whatever. Myself, my partner and our daughter were all born in different EU countries, a major part of my own "heritage" is from a fourth and socially we've all close links across the EU.

I'm fully signed up to a European project.

Fuck Britain, Fuck London. It never did anything for me.

...but the EU is betraying (or undermining perhaps) my European dream.

 

[Pickman's model]

You counted the pages

i looked at the page numbers

 

[danny la rouge]

You counted the pages

Of course he counted the pages:

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course he counted the pages:

nah i made it up, everyone knows there's only 26 pages

 

[Blagsta]

They can't stop you opting back in again though.

I'd hazard a guess that shifts would soon become scarce if you did.

 

[danny la rouge]

nah i made it up, everyone knows there's only 26 pages

We have two options:

1. Believe you.

2. Find out.

It's nearly tea time. I'm opting for 1.

 

[Pickman's model]

We have two options:

1. Believe you.

2. Find out.

It's nearly tea time. I'm opting for 1.

mind you don't go to m&s for your tea, they'll not give you a second bag.

 

[cesare]

i looked at the page numbers

I can't find a 60 page version Directives tend to be quite short and broad brush leaving the member states to embody the principles in national legislation then dealing with the resulting challenges.

 

[cesare]

I'd hazard a guess that shifts would soon become scarce if you did.

Not if everyone did.