How will you vote in the EU Referendum: Post financial waterboarding edition

[MochaSoul]

The only thing that Europe would keep "benefitting" from continued UK's membership is neoliberal economic thinking. I'd like to think I'd turned my opinion around earlier but, ironically, it was Gordon Brown's campaign episode with the "bigoted woman" that really got me thinking hard about this. It's been a great ride for the wealthy and the [bigger] employers of this project. Not so much for the poor nor the workers. The low wage economic here is the brain drain of Portugal et al.
EU's neocon strategy is keeping the poor so poor they won't have a voice or a real stake in decision making processes. What's been happening with Greece is just the most aggressive manifestation of such thinking.

There's no option for us immigrants in the poll so in the interests of veracity I had to choose the "I won't vote option". If I did, I'd vote for the UK to leave. If ever there is a vote in Portugal I'll vote to leave.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I don't have time to construct a detailed response but:
500 million citizens
GDP of 18.495 trillion US dollars, the largest economy in the world.

Are you Angela Merkel?

 

[weltweit]

Are you Angela Merkel?

checks, nope, I don't think so

 

[SpackleFrog]

Yep. I'm disgusted by the EU but all my previous reasons for fearing what the Tories would do with no EU brake on them still stand.

What EU brake? Honestly, where have people got this idea that the EU is stopping the Tories doing anything?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What EU brake? Honestly, where have people got this idea that the EU is stopping the Tories doing anything?

In terms of employment law, you mean? The EU brake in terms of employment law comes in the form of EU employment law.

 

[frogwoman]

the tories aren't being stopped by the eu at all ffs!!

 

[SpackleFrog]

checks, nope, I don't think so

But you measure the success of the EU just as she, and presumably David Cameron, as well. What about the 22.2% of unemployed youth? What about the poverty? The starvation? The suicides? The future? The impending China slowdown? The nationalist resentment and division the EU is responsible for? The pitting of workers in different countries and even the same countries against each other? Don't you even think about this stuff?

Nah, you just think about growth.

 

[MochaSoul]

In terms of employment law, you mean? The EU brake in terms of employment law comes in the form of EU employment law.

Look at what Europe did to pensioners in Greece, Portugal, etc.

 

[SpackleFrog]

In terms of employment law, you mean? The EU brake in terms of employment law comes in the form of EU employment law.

Like the working time directive that means fuck all here?

 

[Teaboy]

But you measure the success of the EU just as she, and presumably David Cameron, as well. What about the 22.2% of unemployed youth? What about the poverty? The starvation? The suicides? The future? The impending China slowdown? The nationalist resentment and division the EU is responsible for? The pitting of workers in different countries and even the same countries against each other? Don't you even think about this stuff?

Not to mention the EU's meddling in Ukraine which has been in part responsible for a horrific civil war and a total breakdown in the relationship with Russia.

 

[frogwoman]

"free movement of people goods and services"

 

[DotCommunist]

there was a british labour movement a long time before there was an EU
Several countries trade with europe under FTA's

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Like the working time directive that means fuck all here?

Like the part-time workers directive that means very far from fuck all here.

 

[frogwoman]

Not to mention the EU's meddling in Ukraine which has been in part responsible for a horrific civil war and a total breakdown in the relationship with Russia.

and its incompetent administration in kosovo which has exacerbated ethnic tensions and completely disillusioned many young people from "european" politics, sending them into the arms of serbian orthodox nationalists/fash or jihadis.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Like the part-time workers directive that means very far from fuck all here.

If the Tories wanted to sidestep that directive (not sure what protection you think that offers but park that) how would the EU stop them?

 

[cesare]

Explanation of the sanctions possible for Members that don't comply with Community law: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-05-482_en.htm?locale=en

Plus employees in the public sector can bring an action against the government for failure to comply.

 

[SpackleFrog]

 

[kebabking]

...it's been a failure by any stretch of the imagination

depends on your definition of failure - has it failed when held against the (starry-eyed?) aims of its creation and development? probably, yes. has it failed compared to the likely counter-factual of the EEC/EC/EU never having existed? realisticly, no.

there's always a worse, and worse can be very bad indeed.

personally i'd vote to stay in. i'm not going to be swayed by this success or that failure, i'm primarily interested in the security of being a member of a very big, very rich gang - membership of which ensures that i'm not going to be seriously pushed about by another big, rich gang.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

(not sure what protection you think that offers but park that

And back in the real world, it is only around 20 years ago that part-time workers had no entitlement to holiday or sick pay and would often receive a lower hourly rate.

So no, let's not park that. Let us examine the practical changes that directive has brought in.

 

[frogwoman]

And back in the real world, it is only around 20 years ago that part-time workers had no entitlement to holiday or sick pay and would often receive a lower hourly rate.

Back in the real world those days look like they're coming back.

 

[MochaSoul]

Like the part-time workers directive that means very far from fuck all here.

Workers rights don't arise by European directive. It's high time workers stop thinking that once a battle is won it's won forever. I feel for my mum who went on strike goodness knows how many times pre and post Portugal's membership for working conditions in nursing. The law was such that by the simple fact of joining a strike her salary suffered a 1/6 dent the month in question. But she carried on and urged others to carry on. These days she can't argue back, her younger colleagues, who won't even join the main nurses union, because "What's the point? If the government doesn't have its way, the troika will do it for them.". Her pension age has been put forward another 5 years and a lot of her younger colleagues have just left the country to places like Germany and Britain.

 

[weltweit]

.. Nah, you just think about growth.

That could be very accurate, except that I never mentioned growth, so it isn't accurate at all.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Workers rights don't arise by European directive.

True. But that doesn't remove the fact that certain worker rights in the UK right now are protected at the level of European law, not UK law. I think it's very weak to attempt to deny that fact because there are too many people who know from direct experience that such EU-level rights do in fact make a difference.

 

[SpackleFrog]

there's always a worse, and worse can be very bad indeed.

I bet you'd say that stood on the deck of the Titanic wouldn't you?

 

[SpackleFrog]

And back in the real world, it is only around 20 years ago that part-time workers had no entitlement to holiday or sick pay and would often receive a lower hourly rate.

So no, let's not park that. Let us examine the practical changes that directive has brought in.

Up until my union branch did something about it two years ago that was the case where I work and the EU had fuck all to do with that.

 

[Supine]

I'd definitely vote to stay in.

I've always been against a referendum because I've been concerned the UK populace would vote the wrong way. And worryingly for me, the votes cast here confirm it. Although I suspect the last few weeks of action have temporarily strengthened the wrong view (imho).

2016-17 could be very interesting.

 

[MochaSoul]

True. But that doesn't remove the fact that certain worker rights in the UK right now are protected at the level of European law, not UK law. I think it's very weak to attempt to deny that fact because there are too many people who know from direct experience that such EU-level rights do in fact make a difference.

I think it's weaker to think that the EU will prioritise workers rights over UK membership as Cameron goes around negotiating them ahead of the referendum.

 

[SpackleFrog]

If the Tories wanted to sidestep that directive...how would the EU stop them?

And back in the real world, it is only around 20 years ago that part-time workers had no entitlement to holiday or sick pay and would often receive a lower hourly rate.

So no, let's not park that. Let us examine the practical changes that directive has brought in.

Answer the question.

 

[SpackleFrog]

That could be very accurate, except that I never mentioned growth, so it isn't accurate at all.

GDP then, pedant.

 

[frogwoman]

I'd definitely vote to stay in.

I've always been against a referendum because I've been concerned the UK populace would vote the wrong way. And worryingly for me, the votes cast here confirm it. Although I suspect the last few weeks of action have temporarily strengthened the wrong view (imho).

2016-17 could be very interesting.

People should be denied the right to vote on what is possibly the most important democratic decision of our lifetimes because they might vote "the wrong" way?