How will you vote in the EU Referendum: Post financial waterboarding edition

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Anecdotal it may be, but I've seen a definite shift among leftists this past week, not neccessarily especially hardcore leftists either. Maybe more centre leaning social democrats are starting to realise what's going on too.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I have changed from 'yes' to 'don't know', but there's a little more to it than that.

The 'yes' that I have long supported, albeit conditionally and tentatively, has been made more difficult, no doubt. The prior narrative, or possible narrative configuration at least, of an unstable, premature and incompetent economic expansion project was one thing - ends, means, balance with the social project, etcetera. The now apparent narrative of what actually happens when push comes to shove is another. Its behaviour and nature is not an enormous surprise but I genuinely never expected the mask to so thoroughly slip so quickly. I know it's naive but I'm surprised and appalled by how brazen and unapologetic it is. Wars have been fought over less, and history will not be kind.

However...

I have exactly no more respect for the proponents of 'No' than I did before. I have a mixture of apathy and contempt, depending on what apparently motivates them. The dominant Eurosceptic voices in this episode have been of isolationists and nationalists, who care as little for Greece as they do for the contemporary EU. Noone is calling for reform, noone is putting forth a better internationalist proposition, and so I'm apparently expected to choose between continuing this catastrophe and a hopeless retreat into a cave. The French and Italian establishments are the closest ally, for fuck's sake. To me, this confirms my suspicions that the left version of the Eurosceptic crowd have nothing more to offer than, 'well, not this' and will be a clueless, impotent irrelevance as soon as they get their wish granted.

The whole lot of them can fuck off. All that's really happened is it's become a more miserable choice.

This pretty much sums up where I'm at. Whatever happens the outcome will be shite.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

to the whole thing.

Still undecided verging towards the "get stuffed" option.

 

[frogwoman]

The tories dont want us out.

 

[frogwoman]

Cameron said he would campaign for a yes vote.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Cameron said he would campaign for a yes vote.

that makes me think more in terms of "no"...

 

[SpackleFrog]

Tories want out so that they can fuck us all over without restriction. The way its going the same applies with those spineless fuckwits in Labour too.

But the Tories don't want to leave (or at least the majority don't) and neither do Labour.

 

[Smangus]

But the Tories don't want to leave (or at least the majority don't) and neither do Labour.

The impression I get (rightly or wrongly) is that the Tory leadership doen't want us out but the majority of rank and file do.

Don't think that Labours views are going to matter too much in the forthcoming referendum.

 

[butchersapron]

The impression I get (rightly or wrongly) is that the Tory leadership doen't want us out but the majority of rank and file do.

Don't think that Labours views are going to matter too much in the forthcoming referendum.

Rank and file what - MPs, members, voters?

Same question about labour.

 

[Smangus]

members and voters

ETA
I have a feeling the events in greece will make Labour increasingly divided over EU membership.

 

[butchersapron]

members and voters

You don't think the 9 and half million labour voters are going to weigh anything in the referendum?

Where is the majority for staying in that most polls have found over the last decade come from if majority of tory voters want to leave?

 

[Quartz]

Because I believe it to be true

Some of the reasons why EU membership is beneficial to the UK are hard to explain to the lay person.

Try it anyway: there are plenty of people here with degrees and doctorates. We may even have some university lecturers.

 

[mauvais]

I do sympathise with Supine's view, on the basis that it's a decision that's so overwhelmingly complex and yet so overwhelmingly open to direction and abuse. You wouldn't opt to replace a big chunk of democratic votes with a handful of tabloid newspaper editors, and yet in practice that is likely what will happen. Just as trying to establish a democratically operated nuclear reactor is probably not a brilliant idea, despite the wisdom of crowds and all, sometimes technocracy is a better arrangement.

Unfortunately the alternatives are not much better. You can exercise your own free will directly but amongst a giant herd of spooked and occasionally racist horses, or you can delegate the decision making to a small cabal of people that are potentially benevolent technocrats but are realistically just self-interested pseudo-religious cunts with no better idea than you or I.

 

[JHE]

Why have democracy at all? The people can't be trusted and they don't know what's for the best. There are dangerous demogogues. The ignorant masses are too easily swayed. We should be ruled by experts. The only trouble is deciding who is expert. Burke thought it should be those born and brought up to rule. Nowadays perhaps Eurocrats are more important than aristocrats, but the horror at democracy is the same.

(Incidentally, a democrat might not want democratically operated nuclear power stations, but a referendum on whether to have nuclear power stations at all.)

 

[Favelado]

.

 

[mauvais]

(Incidentally, a democrat might not want democratically operated nuclear power stations, but a referendum on whether to have nuclear power stations at all.)

Of course. But it's a bit late now, just as it's a bit late now to decide whether we want global capitalism to prevail and the rest of the EU to exist.

The preferred answer would be education & engagement, recognition of the long term significance of the vote and the outcome, and delegation/representation as an option. Unfortunately the direction of political travel in this country appears to be the opposite. If that sounds like distrust of the electorate, it's because it is distrust of the electorate. Personally I fear the referendum, not just for the two totally shit dishes on the menu but also because of how and why we will arrive at ordering either.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I Just as trying to establish a democratically operated nuclear reactor is probably not a brilliant idea, despite the wisdom of crowds and all, sometimes technocracy is a better arrangement.

I think that misunderstands what deomocracy is normally taken to mean. What it has to involve is accountability. Hence, so-called 'technocracy' is in reality simply dictatorship. Democracy doesn't have to mean that every decision is taken by referendum, but it does have to mean an executive that can be held to account for its decisions. Decision-making does not have to be done collectively at all times (not practical), but decision-makers should be held to account for their decisions. That is where the EU falls right down at the moment, even on the most limited definition of democracy.

Strikes me that this notion of 'technocracy' is a modern take on dictatorship, one that takes the dictators out of their military uniforms and puts them into civvie suits, but one that performs exactly the same function that military coups performed in the past. For Pinochet overthrowing Allende, read the Troika overthrowing Tsipras. More polite, no guns, but similar political result.

 

[marty21]

seems there is a move on the left towards supporting the no campaign - I'm a bit uncertain about it all - on one hand - Greece has been proper fucked by the EU on debt - on the other hand - they seem to have ignored the financial issues when they admitted them to the Euro

Also I hate being on the same side as UKIP on any issue - if the vote is to leave , can you imagine the kipper celebrations?
it's a proper dilemma

plus I'd prefer to be on the inside of the tent pissing out, than on the outside of the tent pissing in - iykwim

 

[littlebabyjesus]

plus I'd prefer to be on the inside of the tent pissing out, than on the outside of the tent pissing in - iykwim

I'd rather be in a proper house with plumbing than either.

 

[mauvais]

I think that misunderstands what deomocracy is normally taken to mean. What it has to involve is accountability. Hence, so-called 'technocracy' is in reality simply dictatorship. Democracy doesn't have to mean that every decision is taken by referendum, but it does have to an executive that can be held to account for its decisions. Decision-making does not have to be done collectively at all times (not practical), but decision-makers should be held to account. That is where the EU falls right down at the moment.

No, what you describe is representative democracy, our system of government being one example. The EU referendum is not representative democracy, decided upon by MPs; it is a direct decision concerning much more than simply who represents us. Noone is going to be held accountable. Let me have a go on the control rods!

 

[Quartz]

Also I hate being on the same side as UKIP on any issue - if the vote is to leave , can you imagine the kipper celebrations?
it's a proper dilemma

OTOH having a quick vote would neutralise UKIP if the result is decisive. Unlike the protracted affair over 2 decades we had with the Scottish referendum which allowed the SNP to build momentum.

 

[redsquirrel]

Just bumping this to post the updates on the situation in Portugal, more of the same from the EU

Eurozone crosses Rubicon as Portugal anti euro Left banned from power
Defiant Portugal shatters the eurozone political complacency

 

[SpookyFrank]

Just bumping this to post the updates on the situation in Portugal, more of the same from the EU

Eurozone crosses Rubicon as Portugal anti euro Left banned from power
Defiant Portugal shatters the eurozone political complacency

“In 40 years of democracy, no government in Portugal has ever depended on the support of anti-European forces, that is to say forces that campaigned to abrogate the Lisbon Treaty, the Fiscal Compact, the Growth and Stability Pact, as well as to dismantle monetary union and take Portugal out of the euro, in addition to wanting the dissolution of NATO,” said Mr Cavaco Silva.

...40 years of democracy which you just effectively ended, you twat

 

[gosub]

Just bumping this to post the updates on the situation in Portugal, more of the same from the EU

Eurozone crosses Rubicon as Portugal anti euro Left banned from power
Defiant Portugal shatters the eurozone political complacency

I would have thought, if the UK IN lot were serious about renegotiation, they would be pushing for an exit mechanism for the EUro. Second tier "associate membership" would be pretty lonely and marginalising otherwise.

 

[danny la rouge]

My views on the EU notwithstanding, this kind of thing is going to make it hard for me to campaign for a Leave vote. In fact, it's going to make it hard for me to vote.

 

[danny la rouge]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

neo-cons, right-wing nationalists and assorted 'small-government' loons lining up with that lot.

But the above tweet is so crass it makes me wonder if there's a mole in there from the other side to sabotage them.

 

[gosub]

My views on the EU notwithstanding, this kind of thing is going to make it hard for me to campaign for a Leave vote. In fact, it's going to make it hard for me to vote.

Both the groups that want to lead OUT ruling out the Norway option has me feeling similar. Even if they don't, eventually, want access to the Single Market that way, it would be neigh on impossible to get anything better in the 2 year Article 50 process.

Fuckwits. That are going to have to some dancing on the head of pin to come back from that.

Agree that tweet is crass.

 

[steeplejack]

still intending to vote No. Admittedly not pleasant being on the same side as UKIP and various other far-right loonballs, but it can't be very nice voting on the same side as Call Me Dave, Baroness Kinnock, Tim Farron and assorted neoliberal business gurus, either.

The treatment of Greece and Portugal, TTIP, the EU's inept bungling in Ukraine and Macedonia, plus the utterly shambolic flunking of the refugee crisis have removed most of the reasons that might make me feel guilty for voting No. Ten-fifteen years ago it was possible to see the EU as a centrist social-democratic bulwark against Blair's continuity Thatcherism. For some time the EU has been little more than a neoliberal happy-clappy club with an increasing contempt for its vast electorate.

There's no inevitability that if the "UK" leaves the EU then somehow we will become a US-lite country with no workers rights and with a permanent underemployed underclass on zero hours contracts.

There is a good left wing case to withdraw from the EU. Farage and Co. will make sure it gets little airing, in the mainstream media, but it is there nonetheless.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Both the groups that want to lead OUT ruling out the Norway option has me feeling similar. Even if they don't, eventually, want access to the Single Market that way, it would be neigh on impossible to get anything better in the 2 year Article 50 process.

Fuckwits. That are going to have to some dancing on the head of pin to come back from that.

Agree that tweet is crass.

Whatever one's position the Norway option is not an option, any more than it was for Scottish independence . We are not Norway