How will you vote in the EU Referendum: Post financial waterboarding edition

[Pickman's model]

I can't find a 60 page version Directives tend to be quite short and broad brush leaving the member states to embody the principles in national legislation then dealing with the resulting challenges.

i made up the sixty page thing, everyone knows there's only 26.

 

[cesare]

i made up the sixty page thing, everyone knows there's only 26.

Which one are you looking at? There's more than one WTD

 

[Pickman's model]

Which one are you looking at? There's more than one WTD

oh

1998 26
2003 11

 

[cesare]

oh

1998 26
2003 11

I was looking at 93/104/EC

 

[Blagsta]

Not if everyone did.

Which would require a level of union organisation amongst agency workers which we currently don't have

 

[Pickman's model]

I was looking at 93/104/EC

7

 

[cesare]

Which would require a level of union organisation amongst agency workers which we currently don't have

Or self organisation, which is just as difficult but worth fighting for.

 

[DotCommunist]

Well, that's hardly surprising, since it was a capitalist club from the beginning, and neoliberalism was written into the currency rules.

What has been shocking has been the vindictive way that Greece has been punished. These measures are punitive not economic. And the way that democracy has just been disregarded.

Its an agreement fit to be signed in the place of versailles

 

[Duncan2]

Which would require a level of union organisation amongst agency workers which we currently don't have

which,naturally,is the whole idea.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you Angela Merkel?

Of course he isn't!
Angela's penis is far larger and more useful than weltweit's!

 

[ViolentPanda]

The success of the EU is in that it's fashioned itself a protective of human dignity, freedom and democracy persona. When push comes to shove you have to have the money or the means to getting it to protect yourself against all that comes your way... and if it comes from the EU itself, it will bare its teeth at you and you'll be fucked. Europe siding with financial inteests in the face of the human catastrophe that affronts us in Greece is just the most barefaced of its bad cop personality so far.

Outside of an existing European Union, whatever form of trade or economic agreement we have with other European states would be under exactly the same strains, and subject to exactly the same forces - that's inescapable under capitalism - as now. States (and superstates) with neoliberalised economies will always "follow the market" rather than following their electorates. To expect anything different shows an appalling understanding of what states do, and who and what they're for.

The single small factor that, despite the above, thinks "better inside the tent, pissing out..." is that we know where the EU is going, and why.I can't say the same about a post-Brexit UK, and that has me very worried.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I say, build a decent labour movement.

A fine ambition.
How, and with what, considering extant and coming legislation on workplace organisation, and the current supine posture of most of our TUs before capital.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No State will support the working class.

No state can, as far as I can see. Even so-called "workers' states" have always been about a projection or representation of worker power, rather than the actual exercise of it. People like Supine fear that people are too thick to vote "correctly". The reality is that "correctly" is entirely a matter of perspective - correctly for whom? The workers certainly can't be relied on to support the state view, even given the plethora of state propaganda being deployed.

 

[existentialist]

A fine ambition.
How, and with what, considering extant and coming legislation on workplace organisation, and the current supine posture of most of our TUs before capital.

I suspect that a new labour (sorry!) movement, when it comes, will be extra-legal. Successive Tory governments (including Tony Blair's) have squeezed the unions further and further into the margins, and I don't think they've helped themselves as they have become increasingly corporate. As they become increasingly irrelevant, we're likely to end up where we were in about 1860, with "samizdat" unions that exist and act outside legal sanction.

At the rate this Government is going, it will soon be to the advantage of skilled workers (particularly in areas of skill shortage) to unite, and start to push back - it'll be harder for semi-skilled or unskilled staff, because it's easier for IDS to just shovel in a bunch of workfare conscripts, but even that relies, to some extent, on people having something more to lose rather than engaging in neo-Luddite sabotage or simply taking to the streets.

I don't think we're going to get to civil war, but I do wonder whether we might soon be looking out for mid-19th century levels of unrest and protest. With, no doubt, correspondingly brutal repression in response.

 

[Dr. Furface]

This war thing is a massive red herring, if the EU fell apart tomorrow the tanks would not start rolling. So much has changed since the last European implosion that it would have to take an extraordinary set of events for a 1940's re-run, its just not going to happen.

That's true - there's no need for war now because Germany has finally got to rule Europe without having to start one!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's true - there's no need for war now because Germany has finally got to rule Europe without having to start one!

That's not a helpful way to look at this.

 

[campanula]

Grief, out for sure - now and then, for a long time really. A filthy cabal - inhuman, where workers are just human capital and the planet is plunder.

 

[redsquirrel]

This war thing is a massive red herring, if the EU fell apart tomorrow the tanks would not start rolling. So much has changed since the last European implosion that it would have to take an extraordinary set of events for a 1940's re-run, its just not going to happen.

Yep, it's a ridiculous argument. Completely ignoring history, politics, everything in favour of some moronic sound bite, only someone as vacuous as weltwlet could make it with a straight face.

 

[redsquirrel]

What would you say to those that are saying, let's throw it all out but there are significant downsides that we need to be very clear about and be prepared to take up arms about?

Well I'll make the point Louis MacNeice made on another thread, it would be ludicrous to believe that with a NO vote the UK would suddenly become some sort of workers paradise, but it would be a blow against capital and thus open up possibilities for pro-wc activity. We will still have to fight to make sure those possibilities develop in the way we want them but IMO remaining blocks those possibilities.

 

[DownwardDog]

Why were they ever let in ?

Intense lobbying by Mitterand who felt, for sentimental reasons, that Europe was incomplet without Greece.

 

[Zabo]

I'd definitely vote to stay in.

I've always been against a referendum because I've been concerned the UK populace would vote the wrong way. And worryingly for me, the votes cast here confirm it. Although I suspect the last few weeks of action have temporarily strengthened the wrong view (imho).

You are of course quite right. Indeed, voting should be limited only to those who attended Charter House and Eton. Just Imagine, there maybe some of the great unwashed who believe Socrates was a footballer and Homer a cartoon character. Disgraceful! If nothing else very voter should be well grounded in the Classics.

Tut, tut! Damn these peasants!

 

[cesare]

Well I'll make the point Louis MacNeice made on another thread, it would be ludicrous to believe that with a NO vote the UK would suddenly become some sort of workers paradise, but it would be a blow against capital and thus open up possibilities for pro-wc activity. We will still have to fight to make sure those possibilities develop in the way we want them but IMO remaining blocks those possibilities.

I agree that it wouldn't be some sort of workers paradise - it's my view that the UK would move closer and closer to the US model e.g. far fewer paid holidays, "at will" employment, increased casualisation. Holidays (and other aspects of the Working Time Directive), agency worker protection (such as it is) and TUPE rights would be the highest on the UK state's hitlist because those draw the most criticism from business. On the bright side, many of those rights have now been embodied in employment contracts and policies (so not as simple to abolish/erode, but they can still be varied) but not consistently. If the legislation is kept (and it's a big if) there would also be uncertainty about whether decisions following CJEU rulings would be followed or overturned until cases are decided by the UK courts. So now is the time for employees, workers organisations and trades unions to act - to consider the "what ifs" and formulate plans accordingly. In the meantime, and I strongly feel this should have been done long since, we should apply as much pressure as possible on businesses to be prevented or penalised (either by way of legislation, or direct action, or both) for paying migrant labour less than national labour.

Do you think that the UK is strong enough to stand alone wrt to pro-wc activity? Or is there a possibility that we would swap the EU for the US long term?

Edit: Just to add about blows against capital and opening up that space for pro-wc activity. We have to be prepared and we have to be quick i.e. before the reaction and drive for profit works in favour of the capitalists. The only reason that we are being allowed this referendum is because it suits the UK state.

 

[belboid]

Well I'll make the point Louis MacNeice made on another thread, it would be ludicrous to believe that with a NO vote the UK would suddenly become some sort of workers paradise, but it would be a blow against capital and thus open up possibilities for pro-wc activity. We will still have to fight to make sure those possibilities develop in the way we want them but IMO remaining blocks those possibilities.

This was very similar to the argument I bought around Scotland. But there are important differences:

Scotland would have, if the vote had won, at least be moving in a leftward direction when the vote was taken. Yes, of course, the SNP's proclaimed left-wingedness is a lie, but it was a lie that was well sold, and when it came up short, would have offered other possibilities.

A vote to leave the EU would, even now, still be an overwhelmingly right wing move. Greece has meant there will be a more sizeable left No movement, but it will still be led by the scum from UKIP and other right wing tories. The prospects that would open up are not nice, should they get the bit between their teeth. the racism the scum would try to whip up would be utterly vile.

And nothing's forever, so the temptation to leave this fight till it is held on better ground for us is one I can well see.

 

[teqniq]

Having seen how amongst other things the Greeks have been treated recently, I have decided it is time to get the fuck out of Dodge.

Mind you I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to discover that those who consider themselves our masters have sensed which way the wind is blowing and find reasons to shelve the referendum, much the same in a sense as has just been done with fox-hunting debate in the HOC.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Mind you I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to discover that those who consider themselves our masters have sensed which way the wind is blowing and find reasons to shelve the referendum, much the same in a sense as has just been done with fox-hunting debate in the HOC.

Which would be fantastic - no Brexit risk and a Tory schism.

 

[teqniq]

Depending on your point of view. But as has been amply demonstrated the EU is anything but democratic and merely serves to further the interests of capital.

 

[Sasaferrato]

A very grudging 'Yes' here. We don't know what would happen if we leave, and the vindictiveness that France and Germany have shown towards Greece, particularly Germany, makes it clear, that post-exit trade agreements would be problematic.

 

[brogdale]

Owen Jones "Lexit"

Mostly...yep?

 

[Smangus]

Depending on your point of view. But as has been amply demonstrated the EU is anything but democratic and merely serves to further the interests of capital.

The same is true of parliament, if anyone thinks that leavingt he eu will bring about some sort of workers utopia in UK PLC they are mistaken. Tories want out so that they can fuck us all over without restriction. The way its going the same applies with those spineless fuckwits in Labour too.

 

[teqniq]

I know this.

The same is true of parliament, if anyone thinks that leavingt he eu will bring about some sort of workers utopia in UK PLC they are mistaken. Tories want out so that they can fuck us all over without restriction. The way its going the same applies with those spineless fuckwits in Labour too.