How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[existentialist]

Submissions to Theresa May's child sex abuse inquiry accidentally deleted
"Information provided by alleged child abuse victims to the overarching inquiry set up by Theresa May has been deleted due to a blunder, it has emerged."

Government departments don't usually like admitting to blunders. So whatever they've done is presumably serious enough that admitting to a blunder is the preferable alternative.

It's funny how good the state is at deleting things...

 

[Kaka Tim]

Im pretty convinced that a whole bunch of people - the spooks, theresa may, presumably cameron, fuck knows who else - are working together to actively protect people in positions in power. From the farcical merry-go-round of choosing a chair for the enquiry, to the co-ordinated assault on Tom Watson to deleting the files - its stinks to fuck.

I think the result of all the various inquiries and police investigations will be sweet fuck all. Decrepit entertainers and long dead mps are one thing - former home secretaries, even dead ones - seem to be beyond the pale.

 

[teqniq]

It does rather look that way.

 

[elbows]

The other stuff does smell in various places, but I'm pretty sure this is just typical website incompetence. For example something to do with not changing code when moving the website to a new domain. If it were deliberate shenanigans then I'd have expected it to last longer before being revealed - i.e. lose far more victims statements.

 

[existentialist]

The other stuff does smell in various places, but I'm pretty sure this is just typical website incompetence. For example something to do with not changing code when moving the website to a new domain. If it were deliberate shenanigans then I'd have expected it to last longer before being revealed - i.e. lose far more victims statements.

I agree that it's probably not deliberate incompetence...but I can't help wondering whether, say, something as trivial as collecting statements relating to historical abuse might have ended up being administered by, shall we say, well, not the IT First Division...?

It's pretty clear that a lot of those in government regard this exercise as a massive ballache that they'd be very pleased to see disappear without trace.

 

[butchersapron]

Police withdraw claim that Cyril Smith visited south London guest house

Statements released by the force in 2013 and 2014 claimed that officers had “established” that the late Liberal MP, who was known to be a child abuser, had visited Elm Guest House in Barnes, south-west London.

That claim has been repeated by campaigners – such as the Conservative candidate for mayor of London, Zac Goldsmith – who believe there is evidence of a cover-up of abuse at the home dating back 30 years.

But a new statement released by the Met to the Guardian has removed the claim, casting doubt on whether the late MP for Rochdale was ever there.

 

[J Ed]

Covered up

 

[elbows]

I agree that it's probably not deliberate incompetence...but I can't help wondering whether, say, something as trivial as collecting statements relating to historical abuse might have ended up being administered by, shall we say, well, not the IT First Division...?

It's pretty clear that a lot of those in government regard this exercise as a massive ballache that they'd be very pleased to see disappear without trace.

Honestly its no surprise to find mistakes, including silly ones, made at most levels of IT. There is nearly always something that can be overlooked, especially during a migration of some sort.

Government knows that they can't make the inquiry disappear without trace. Not even if a load of the higher profile, most 'scandalous' potential MP/Minister etc cases go nowhere and continue to be roasted in the press, because the inquiry goes beyond that that stuff and into the other levels of power, institutions etc where abuse happened.

Many things have happened to both encourage and discourage victims of abuse from coming forwards. The volume of additional police & justice work thats been created by people coming forwards post-savile tells us that something has happened that no manner of silly games at the highest levels will put down.

But certainly I can believe they will attempt damage limitation wherever possible, especially when it comes to higher echelons. But I've always been aware that a number of the cases we've heard about will be tough, either because they are not based on what really happened, or the coverups indulged in at the time were too effective, or other reasons why victims might not be available to seek justice in todays climate. I place more hope in hearing more details of 'VIP' abuse by politicians who are dead and relatively easily exposed, or of cases that didn't reach the media rumour mill at the time or since but may emerge at some point, than in the highest profile cases that have so occupied the medias focus and are now again being destroyed or turned into a sideshow much like the Meecham-McAlpine stuff and Schofields list were.

 

[nino_savatte]

This is kind of related. Patrick Rock, who was caught in possession of indecent images of children, was due in court last week. There's nothing in the press about it and the entire story itself is being kept quiet. Rock, as some of you may recall, was a Downing Street SpAd and a 5 times failed parliamentary candidate.

This Whatdotheyknow thread makes interesting reading.

ETA: As I said, there's nothing in the press but I found this. Rock was bailed last week until he goes to trial in May 2016.
Patrick Rock court case adjourned

 

[MAD-T-REX]

My feeling on Rock is that the media is giving the story a very wide berth so they can continue to fully report on the unrelated VIP paedophile allegations. It would be flirting with contempt to run a story about any defendant in Rock's position alongside (or anywhere near) that coverage and it would bolster the inevitable claim by the defence that a fair trial is impossible in the current atmosphere.

This Whatdotheyknow thread makes interesting reading.

To be fair, he asked the wrong department. HMCTS or the CPS could have told him immediately.

 

[Lurdan]

The Met solve the problem of what to do about Operation Midland by taking it out the back and shooting it merging it and Operation Fairbank into the dedicated team dealing with historic child abuse that was announced last month. When this team was announced Midland was not included and a couple of days later they issued a statement making it clear that it was still ongoing. Following the barrage of criticism that Midland has received over the last couple of weeks they have now changed their minds.

Whilst we are not prepared to give a running commentary on any ongoing live investigation, as Operations Midland and Fairbank have progressed officers identified a number of people and locations that were common to both enquiries. It is therefore operationally important to have the same officer in charge of these enquiries.

Coincidentally this also avoids some of the 'reputational damage' that might follow from formally closing Midland down.

This team will also be responsible for the preparatory work required to support the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse.

This team will continue to investigate the various operations that are ongoing, including those historical allegations of impropriety by police officers dealing with sexual abuse in the period 1970-2005.

Interesting to wonder how much time the unit will be spending on further investigation of the Midland allegations as opposed to preparing the presentation about them to the inquiry.

Met statement

ETA: explaining this decision by stating that Midland and Fairbank "identified a number of people and locations that were common to both enquiries" is a little odd given that Midland was set up as a separate operation on the basis of allegations made to Fairbank.

 

[nino_savatte]

My feeling on Rock is that the media is giving the story a very wide berth so they can continue to fully report on the unrelated VIP paedophile allegations. It would be flirting with contempt to run a story about any defendant in Rock's position alongside (or anywhere near) that coverage and it would bolster the inevitable claim by the defence that a fair trial is impossible in the current atmosphere.

The issue for me (and no doubt many others), however, is that Cameron's judgement vis a vis those in his employ is non-existent. There was Coulson et al, now there's Rock.

 

[eskdave]

Greebo is on holiday.

Sorry thrice -I will leave it out-Greece is it?

 

[fishfinger]

Sorry thrice -I will leave it out-Greece is it?

Back now

 

[Lurdan]

The Home Affairs select committee hearings on #watsongate and the Met's delays in dealing with "Jane's" rape allegation against Brittan produced little of interest beyond the inadvertent confirmation from one of the Met witnesses that there was still a current live investigation into a different allegation about Brittan.

Exaro actually has some news in the form of the latest figures from Operation Hydrant, which acts as the national co-ordinator for investigations into allegations of child sexual abuse by prominent people or within institutions.

Police probe 13 more politicians over claims of child sex abuse - Exaro

Of 287 prominent people under investigation, 89 are national or local politicians, 145 from radio, TV and film, 38 from the music industry and 15 from the world of sport, according to Operation Hydrant. The total number of suspects has jumped from 1,433 to 2,016, a rise of more than 40 per cent. Among these are 372 suspects from religious institutions, 289 teachers and 157 care workers, the latest figures show.

In total, 676 institutions are under police scrutiny, almost double the figure as of May. These include 271 schools, 181 children’s homes, 76 religious institutions and 31 health establishments, with all types of institution seeing higher numbers within the past five months.

Operation Hydrant is co-ordinating 262 “significant police investigations” across the UK.

And one of the Dickens dossiers has been handed to self-effacing campaignerJohn Mann who has issued statements to the press that he will be passing it to the Police. In the meantime it has been shown to BBC journalists.

Police to investigate Geoffrey Dickens sex abuse dossier - BBC

One document, among several seen by the BBC, suggests that "large numbers" of those named in it were paedophiles.

It contains the names of three MPs from the 1980s and other individuals connected to the Conservative party.

(...)

The document seen by the BBC contains 21 names. A handwritten note in pencil suggests it was "given to Geoff Dickens, in Lobby, Jan 84".

The author, a Conservative party member in the 1980s, says the information was gathered from two former Tory MPs - Sir Victor Raikes and Anthony Courtney.

Both are now dead and as a result the authenticity of the document can't be directly verified; however, handwritten notes said to have been compiled during discussions with the MPs in the 1980s are also also in the file.

 

[elbows]

Since Boothby & Kray came up here before, it seems appropriate to post this here.

An association between Conservative peer Robert Boothby and London gangster Ronnie Kray was the subject of an MI5 investigation, documents have revealed.

The men went to "homosexual parties" together and were "hunters" of young men, declassified MI5 files claim.

Allegations in 1964 about the pair's relationship caused such concern within Downing Street that the then head of MI5 was summoned to the Home Office.

Ronnie Kray and Tory peer Lord Boothby 'attended homosexual parties' - BBC News

 

[hot air baboon]

...article by BBC Panorama journalist Alistair Jackson...

Why won’t the Met speak out on Tom Watson’s biggest claim?

The police have found no evidence for ‘a paedophile network linked to No. 10’. They should now admit it.

Alistair Jackson

McKelvie claimed that evidence recovered by police from Righton’s house contained the supposedly explosive link to No. 10. McKelvie believed he had a lead to the former senior aide being prepared to look after child -pornography.

But who was this ‘senior’ politician? Watson was quick to point out who it wasn’t, ruling out Peter Morrison, a former aide to Margaret Thatcher. I soon established whom McKelvie believed it to be: a man who is now today a government minister. I won’t name him because, as we have seen over the past few months, baseless accusations against innocent men can cause permanent reputational damage. Mr Watson did not, evidently, believe these claims to be baseless — indeed, when I made my inquiries, I was also told that two witnesses would be able to confirm Minister X’s involvement. But when I tracked down the supposed witnesses, both told me that he never been part of the abuse they had suffered.

 

[nino_savatte]

David Hencke lays into Aaronovitch.

So what is the evidence? There are two separate sources. First my original source – not Chris Fay – who a colleague met – was a former local government officer on Richmond Council. It was he who led me to investigate why Elm Guest House was raided in the first place in 1982.

It wasn’t complaints from survivors but the residents who lived on this smart Barnes street. They were fed up with people coming at all hours, seeing children going into the guest house, and having posh chauffeur driven cars drawing up there. Most ordinary people do not have large posh cars or chauffeurs at their beck and call. It was one of the then residents who identified Leon Brittan not a survivor. Separately in answer to a direct question from a Dispatches investigation, the police confirmed that Sir Cyril Smith visited Elm Guest House and contary to reorts,haver not withdrawn it.
Why let your good smear campaign be spoiled with the facts, David Aaronovitch

 

[hot air baboon]

Ex-deputy director of MI6 is named by MP as 'key' figure who 'manipulated' Westminster VIP paedophile ring

John Mann said George Kennedy Young was 'key' to paedophile claims
Labour MP said ex-deputy director of MI6 took part in 'dubious' activities
Mann added Mr Young was a 'manipulator' who controlled groups of people within which there were paedophile rings in the 1970s or 1980s

Ex MI6 chief 'key' to Westminster VIP paedophile ring claims, says MP

Mr Mann, MP for Bassetlaw, claimed he had been handed a copy of the dossier of evidence that was given by Conservative MP Geoffrey Dickens to then Home Secretary Leon Brittan in 1984.

In a Westminster Hall debate, Mr Mann said Mr Young, who died in 1990, had been named in the first line of the document.

He said: 'This is an original, I have spoken and met and got a copy from the person who personally handed it to Geoffrey Dickens who then personally gave it to Leon Brittan.
'And what it says is, first line - GK Young heads up a Powellite faction known as Tory Action. GK Young, George Kennedy Young, was deputy director of MI6 in the past, long dead.

'The allegations are that he manipulated a group of people and that within that there were paedophile rings. And it goes into detail - who it's alleged were involved and where.
'I won't give all the locations because some would be I think sensitive and would potentially identify people - but London is one, Greater Manchester is another, North Yorkshire is a third one.'
Mr Mann said GK Young may be key in finding out what happened to the dossier.

 

[butchersapron]

GKY 70s far-right protege was Harvey Proctor.

 

[Idris2002]

Misread post, so deleting my original commment.

 

[Lurdan]

GKY 70s far-right protege was Harvey Proctor.

Indeed. Young is a very interesting figure who turns up a lot in early issues of Lobster magazine. (In the issues that Stephen Dorril has free on his website there are references to him in 11, 23 and particularly 19 - which contains a long account of Young's Intelligence career written either by Young himself or a close associate). Like Proctor and the Powellite wing of the Tories he had a visceral hatred for Heath. In 1974 he stood for the post of Chairman of the Monday Club, supported by many of it's more radically right wing elements including NF entrists. He lost and a purge of the NF elements followed.

If Mann is being quoted accurately in the Mail :

And what it says is, first line - GK Young heads up a Powellite faction known as Tory Action.

then it rather suggests that the 'dossier' - based on information from two former Tory MPs and prominent members of the Monday Club - began life as a factional document in this internal warfare after the Tory defeat in 74. If that's the case then its purpose wasn't the noble cause of exposing paedophiles (or the less noble one, given when it was written, of exposing homosexuals) but of smearing political opponents. In other words something not unlike John Mann's open letter to Corbyn during the Labour leadership election, in which, amongst other things, he accused Corbyn of 'rubbishing' Dickens. (Read again now that letter looks even more self-serving and contemptible than it did at the time).

Of course none of that means that this 'dossier' doesn't contain information which might be useful or interesting although frankly I'm disinclined to hold my breath about it. (And given that the BBC seem to have had sight of it independently of Mann I'm guessing it probably doesn't contain anything that is unknown to the Police). But I think it does highlight a couple of things :

Firstly, the need to be careful in dealing with claims that originated as ammunition in political infighting, because the difference between truth, lies and spin often isn't of the slightest importance to the people who produce and circulate them. **

And secondly, looking at the way in which this 'dossier' is being deployed by Mann (a true son of Dickens in this respect, although without the justification of being as obviously stupid) what massive cunt's some of the self-proclaimed 'champions' of abuse victims really are.

**(Obviously it's equally necessary to be careful in dealing with claims like the Whitelaw/Powell/Abse ones which first surfaced in the SRA obsessed Charismatic wing of the CofE and the 'house church movement' on it's fringes, although there the problem isn't caused by political expediency but from a faith in 'revealed' truth).

 

[brogdale]

State broadcaster grudgingly concedes that it mis-led over claims that OB had dropped CSE investigations against Brittan. Only took them a month.

 

[elbows]

I quite liked the sound of Fridays inquiry announcement. I won't say more until I've read the information given in its entirety rather than just press reports, but for now here are the initial 12 strands of investigation (which will be followed by more some time later).

1. Children in the care of Lambeth council
2. Children in the care of Nottinghamshire councils
3. Cambridge House, Knowl View and Rochdale council
4. Child sexual abuse in the Anglican church
5. Child sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic church
6. The sexual abuse of children in custodial institutions
7. Child sexual abuse in residential schools
8. The internet and child sexual abuse
9. Child exploitation by organised networks
10. The protection of children outside the United Kingdom
11. Accountability and reparations for victims and survivors
12. Allegations of child sexual abuse linked to Westminster

 

[elbows]

Latest Operation Hydrant stats:

Operation Hydrant: UK police identify 2,228 child abuse suspects - BBC News

More than 2,200 suspects are being investigated by UK police probing historical child sex abuse allegations.

Figures from Operation Hydrant - which was set up by the National Police Chiefs' Council - show the total has risen by almost 800 since May.

It includes 302 people of "public prominence", including 99 politicians and 147 from television, film or radio.

Some 761 different institutions are now on the Hydrant database, including 288 schools and 204 children's homes.

Of the 2,228 suspects currently under investigation:

• Some 286 are now dead, while 554 are classified as unknown or unidentified
• Among those of public prominence, 39 come from the music industry and 17 from the world of sport
• A total of 1,217 are alleged offenders who operated within institutions, including 86 religious institutions, 39 medical establishments and 25 prisons or young offenders institutes
• Other institutions named include 22 sports venues, 10 community institutions, such as youth clubs, and 81 other institutions, such as guest houses
• A further six institutions are classified as unknown

 

[teqniq]

Lord Janner found unfit to stand trial for alleged sex offences

 

[existentialist]

Lord Janner found unfit to stand trial for alleged sex offences

Not a surprise. I imagine that the legal authorities are going to considerable lengths to make sure there can be no suggestion that he is being let off lightly.

 

[hot air baboon]

 

[nino_savatte]

 

[existentialist]

It's all got quite a "leaned-on" feel about it, hasn't it?