How left wing is this forum?
- Thread starter Benjy1992
- Start date
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
They are bastards. No doubt. Do you know were the derivation of 'Tory' comes from? Gaellic. It means 'pursued man' or brigand.
Aaah! My dad sold mobile cranes for Coles!
So he's the one nation tory (he wasn't that political to be honest) and my mum used to be a member of the young socialists. How they ever got together is beyond me. But anyway on with the story.
My dad and i used to argue politics a bit (i don't think he was that arsed but i was). I pointed out that when his sales career started was right at the end of WW2 and he did really well up until about 1979. Then his sales dried up (the tories attack on the unions in manufacturing and heavy industry...Mersey Docks and Harbour Board were one of his major repeat customers). He just refused to accept that one thing (Tory election/Unions/Liverpool) had anything to do with the other (no sales). But again, to be fair, he really wasn't political other than reading the Express ('for the crossword') and always voting tory.
ETA: And containerisation at Seaforth. The Mersey couldn't handle the size of the ships. But he covered that bit too. So politics and technology really. Like advances in communication tech have shifted jobs to China (and next stop West Africa).
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Humberto
dreamin man
All me family are from the Birkenhead area. So factory jobs (both grandads) their parents were all dockers. Where they lived, Cleveland Street/ Corporation Road, was subject to the Nazi bombs. There was still quite a bit of that neighbourhood around when I was a youngster, but they knocked most of it down in recent years. Me great grandad drove a horse and cart round the docks, (so he was well off relatively). They didn't have much rights then in their employment. They'd throw tokens into the crowd and whoever was quickest got a days work on the docks.
When the bombs came down (this is my sixty year old dad's grandad), they requisitioned houses over the other side of Birkenhead Park. So massive posh houses, although shared amongst quite a few. One of my dad's uncles, 18 years old, didn't want to go and fight in WW2. So he was hidden by the family. His brother -in- law was some kind of warden and caught him and grassed him up.
So then they built the likes of the Woodchurch and Leasowe estates in the 50s I think. And so we went on. Cool story etc.
When the bombs came down (this is my sixty year old dad's grandad), they requisitioned houses over the other side of Birkenhead Park. So massive posh houses, although shared amongst quite a few. One of my dad's uncles, 18 years old, didn't want to go and fight in WW2. So he was hidden by the family. His brother -in- law was some kind of warden and caught him and grassed him up.
So then they built the likes of the Woodchurch and Leasowe estates in the 50s I think. And so we went on. Cool story etc.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
GET THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!!! I'm originally from Moreton and my folks shifted me over to Meols after i passed the 11 plus (Caldy). Fucking small world man!
Humberto
dreamin man
No mate but Stairways was the only place me and my mates could get into as scrawny 15 YOs
I knew you from the same area. You must have mentioned it. I'm a lurker mainly.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
The Wirral is a strange place. Original but weird. Warrior Soul played Stairways once.No mate but Stairways was the only place me and my mates could get into as scrawny 15 YOs
I knew you from the same area. You must have mentioned it. I'm a lurker mainly.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
Just realised you're taking the piss!No mate but Stairways was the only place me and my mates could get into as scrawny 15 YOs
I knew you from the same area. You must have mentioned it. I'm a lurker mainly.
Humberto
dreamin man
No I'm really not honestly. My fault though cos I've been rude to you and you've been generous to me.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
Say something funny.
Humberto
dreamin man
Honestly I was cunty to you. You're great. I read these boards all day, and must have picked up on the fact that you are from the same area as me.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Well, at least we got around to this sensible post from the purism. Tbh Ming I’d been surprised that up until then you hadn’t been castigated for not knowing how a Liberal Party eugenicist had been responsible for the plan that helped create the NHS, thus invalidating any good that came of it and making all users fascists by their support of such a system. But then, to be fair, Serge weighed in with a bit of sense.
Which is right. Although of course we’d also had to cope with Squirrels arguments which say the Labour Party had nothing at all to do with the creation of the NHS, it all being down to the working class. Obviously it being the working class, not Bevan, who got doctors on side through hard negotiation and not a little compromise, doctors being, as they were, extremely reluctant to join in the fun.
But then we had the ideological pure Dotty weighing in with what sounds like sense, good working class sense that can’t possibly be questioned because Dotty said it right?
Do you know how much that sounds like total disrespectful bollocks to your average working class person, Not to mention to the working class within the NHS, while of course claiming to be ideologically pure non-bollocks of the highest order? To someone like me, who has now had two £20000 cancer operations that aren’t even covered by medical insurance in any other country in the world, let alone affordable to anyone on my sort of wage. Crumbs? Some fucking crumbs mate. It’s the greatest example I can think of of ‘according to need’ to which I’ve contributed (significantly less) from my ability to do so.
But no. Let’s hit Dotty’s comment with likes, because he’s a veteran on here and he speaks pure, ideological, surely unarguable, truths. In the real world. That real people understand and can get behind with their experience. And god forbid anyone who should think further than hitting ‘like’ on such bollocks. God forbid anyone who’s experience doesn’t match the ideological purity of Urban 75.
Like fuck. It’s just another example, as was some of the ranting against Ming instead of cooling correcting what he said that was wrong, of the ‘better than thou’, ‘ooh look, Ming doesn’t even know Beveridge was a Liberal’ ‘I’m so smarter than those I profess to want to help’ bollocks of what this forum is like sometimes. The bit that has no idea whatsoever how to connect with the working class because it’s too far up its own arse trying to be ideologically sound.
Which is right. Although of course we’d also had to cope with Squirrels arguments which say the Labour Party had nothing at all to do with the creation of the NHS, it all being down to the working class. Obviously it being the working class, not Bevan, who got doctors on side through hard negotiation and not a little compromise, doctors being, as they were, extremely reluctant to join in the fun.
But then we had the ideological pure Dotty weighing in with what sounds like sense, good working class sense that can’t possibly be questioned because Dotty said it right?
Do you know how much that sounds like total disrespectful bollocks to your average working class person, Not to mention to the working class within the NHS, while of course claiming to be ideologically pure non-bollocks of the highest order? To someone like me, who has now had two £20000 cancer operations that aren’t even covered by medical insurance in any other country in the world, let alone affordable to anyone on my sort of wage. Crumbs? Some fucking crumbs mate. It’s the greatest example I can think of of ‘according to need’ to which I’ve contributed (significantly less) from my ability to do so.
But no. Let’s hit Dotty’s comment with likes, because he’s a veteran on here and he speaks pure, ideological, surely unarguable, truths. In the real world. That real people understand and can get behind with their experience. And god forbid anyone who should think further than hitting ‘like’ on such bollocks. God forbid anyone who’s experience doesn’t match the ideological purity of Urban 75.
Like fuck. It’s just another example, as was some of the ranting against Ming instead of cooling correcting what he said that was wrong, of the ‘better than thou’, ‘ooh look, Ming doesn’t even know Beveridge was a Liberal’ ‘I’m so smarter than those I profess to want to help’ bollocks of what this forum is like sometimes. The bit that has no idea whatsoever how to connect with the working class because it’s too far up its own arse trying to be ideologically sound.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
oooh. Do you fancy a middle of the day coffee? might be a laugh. no worries if noy.
Every brain function is biological. Every thought, every emotion is biological. Biological is not the same as deterministic or fixed though. Empathy is learnt or suppressed by experience or conscious decision. The fact that it is processed in the amygdala (or, more accurately, that the amygdala is involved in its processing) doesn’t change that — everything you think or feel has to be processed somewhere.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
Do you believe in free will?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Yes total ideological purity - a couple of (ex-)trots, some non-aligned communists and two anarchists.
You want to talk about ideological purity how about this
To use danny la rouge's example, it is not ideological purity to insist that a sofa is not a table.
Nor is is ideological purity to see Ming's description of the creation of the NHS as an essentially liberal one (as Spiney posted), it quite clearly is. It's the type of version of history that you'd have presented by Marr.
In fact the main person on this thread insisting on ideological purity is Ming, by constructing a left is little more that "not-Tory"* and then obliterating all political differences between liberalism, social democracy, and socialism.
In fact it's worth noticing that in Ming's politics the creation of the NHS/welfare state becomes the work of one political party and could not come about otherwise. Contrast that with the argument that the creation of the welfare state (a process that occurred in a similar manner across the West under governments of different stripe) came about through the force of the working class with all its varied ideas, politics, contradictions, demands and wants. And it is the latter that is ideologically pure?
*and apparently more empathetic. Seriously if people want to talk about ideologically purity, then that "thesis" might be the place to start!
You want to talk about ideological purity how about this
Where Serge Forward's criticism of a government attacking workers (how terribly ideologically pure!) necessarily entails "fuck the welfare state".
To use danny la rouge's example, it is not ideological purity to insist that a sofa is not a table.
Nor is is ideological purity to see Ming's description of the creation of the NHS as an essentially liberal one (as Spiney posted), it quite clearly is. It's the type of version of history that you'd have presented by Marr.
In fact the main person on this thread insisting on ideological purity is Ming, by constructing a left is little more that "not-Tory"* and then obliterating all political differences between liberalism, social democracy, and socialism.
In fact it's worth noticing that in Ming's politics the creation of the NHS/welfare state becomes the work of one political party and could not come about otherwise. Contrast that with the argument that the creation of the welfare state (a process that occurred in a similar manner across the West under governments of different stripe) came about through the force of the working class with all its varied ideas, politics, contradictions, demands and wants. And it is the latter that is ideologically pure?
*and apparently more empathetic. Seriously if people want to talk about ideologically purity, then that "thesis" might be the place to start!
I believe that question contains its own implied answer.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
just a bad gig man.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
Still hopeful. Nature of our thing.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
We are not anything. There is no self — it is an illusion. A story we tell ourselves. But we believe that story so hard, it ends up determining our behaviour. So long as that is true, there is no free will. But if we can identify the story and see its beats for what they are, we have the absolute freedom to make a different decision to our self-determined default. That is the only freedom we have and it can be the most powerful thing or meaningless in equal measure.
Ming
I shot a man in Reno...
Weird isn't it? If you get into quantification of valuing things, things can get really abstract.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
Sorry, but our ability to identify the ‘story’ is in itself limited by the ‘story’ and all the historical and social factors that made it. It’s an illusion, a vanity that we can transcend it. Just enjoy the ride.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
That doesn’t change what I said one iota.Sorry, but our ability to identify the ‘story’ is in itself limited by the ‘story’ and all the historical and social factors that made it. It’s an illusion, a vanity that we can transcend it. Just enjoy the ride.
planetgeli
There's no future in England's dreaming
Your sarcasm doesn’t come across as particularly approachable.
I’m not here to defend Ming, but your quote of him replying to Serge’s point about troops being set on workers is particularly disingenuous, ignoring as you do Ming’s post about 12 posts later where he says he doesn’t agree with such government tactics. But you also characterise this as Ming believing it “necessarily entails fucking the welfare state”. Ming never said that. And if anything, Serge’s (good and proper) point was in relation to Ming saying what a good government Atlee was. A point that could be characterised, by you, if you were on a different side of the argument, as saying that the welfare state, being put in place by the same government that attacked workers, couldn’t possibly be a good thing. Like I said, surprised nobody bought eugenics into it.
I reckon you’ll find Ming’s mischaracterisation as the welfare state and NHS being a Labour Party only thing is one shared by a lot of the working class. Many people think Labour government, Nye Bevan = welfare state + NHS. Do you go around telling lol these people how superior you are for knowing the nuances involved?
I hope you talk to them better than you talk to people on here. But I doubt it. Because you really do come across as a supercilious political know all.
This place is stale. Ever wonder why you can’t attract new members through the rankling and arguments that laughingly pass for debate?
Anyway Serge Forward nice sounding pamphlet. Where do I pick one up? Edit. I clicked. But I don’t do PayPal.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
You slated off people for being ideological pure while ignoring the fact that the only real position of ideologically purity was propounded by Ming, proposing that criticism of the LP/Attlee government was equated with "fuck the NHS/welfare state", and then coming out with this bizarre (and frankly somewhat dodgy position).
If you want to talk about debate, then in reply to Proper Tidy's very reasonable claim
If you want to talk about debate, then in reply to Proper Tidy's very reasonable claim
You have, this.
I'm very happy to have a debate on how the welfare state came about and the role of the LP. But don't pretend that in response to perfectly valid points about the limitations of the LP the response was not a load of "when did you stop hitting your wife?".
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mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I get your anger and I'm replying because I liked DotCommunist 's "crumbs" post.
I've benefitted from the NHS, I'd be dead by now at least twice without it.
That doesn't change the fact that it is, from a w/c pov, 'crumbs'. Waiting lists. "Treatment unavailable". No appointments at the GP. No A+E dept within 20 miles. Meds instead of counselling. Systematically importing foreign staff because what, British ppl can't do those jobs? Or is it to keep wages down? Not to mention the brain drain from places who need doctors and nurses just as badly as we do. Hospitals renting operating theatres from private equity firms. etc.
It was a great achievement, but it's disrespectful to nobody to recognize it was a sop to (as someone astutely put it upthread) a well-armed and empowered working class after two wars.
And it's being worn down now exactly because the working class are tame again, three generations since we were handed guns and trained to kill each other and we're falling apart.
So I appreciate treatment we've all had at times couldn't have been got for free in the US, but that doesn't mean it wasn't basically crumbs that we've been saved by. A human can survive a surprisingly long time on scraps.
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