How left wing is this forum?

[Proper Tidy]

And yeah fuck the labour party the absolute shower of cunts and albatross on our necks

 

[redsquirrel]

But ultimately I want a damn sight more than what we've got.

For our demands are modest, we only want the earth.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Fuck it lets storm the heavens

 

[Ming]

The first two - absolutely. The second two - has anyone said anything remotely like that, no.

So the first two had nothing to do with the second two then?

 

[Proper Tidy]

So the first two had nothing to do with the second two then?

Less than you think

 

[Ming]

I'll defend the NHS and the welfare state on the basis that the "changes" proposed are not in our interests either, and what we've got is better than what we're being offered.

But ultimately I want a damn sight more than what we've got.

Agree with you. But every step forward is a victory and those two are very large steps forward.

 

[redsquirrel]

So the first two had nothing to do with the second two then?

They were in place when the working class forced concessions from capital. Oh and they backtracked, introducing charges.

 

[chilango]

Agree with you. But every step forward is a victory and those two are very large steps forward.

Aufhebengefung or something comrade.

They were simultaneously a victory and a defeat.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Stick with reality. Not alternative timelines. It was Labour who created the welfare state and the NHS. I'm aware that Keynes was trying to save capitalism from itself but let's stick with the facts yeah?
So. Again. Any cheers for the welfare state and the NHS comrades?

Top down bollocks. The welfare state and NHS have been of massive benefit to the working class. Nobody objects to that claim. It's the claim that the NHS happened because Attlee was a nice bloke (conveniently ignoring Bevans contribution and robbing the rest of the population of any kind of political agency) that's rightly being ridiculed. No left wing historian I'm aware of would agree with your position. Top down right wing bollocks is what you're spouting. The great man theory of history. It's making you look a bit of a tit.

 

[8ball]

I voted leave, I’m hardly surprised the Tories have arsed it up.
But as for the news that’s meant to shock us..... “the poor will be poorer!” “Business will fuck you up the ass without lube”

Get fucked man. Middle class people that are now in a state of terror and stocking up on tinned food were obviously living in a state of fantastical naïveté for years..... oh hey I didn’t mean the french version, but I’ll leave it like that anyway cause it makes me sound learned.

Actually, not particularly learned.

 

[Ming]

Top down bollocks. The welfare state and NHS have been of massive benefit to the working class. Nobody objects to that claim. It's the claim that the NHS happened because Attlee was a nice bloke (conveniently ignoring Bevans contribution and robbing the rest of the population of any kind of political agency) that's rightly being ridiculed. No left wing historian I'm aware of would agree with your position. Top down right wing bollocks is what you're spouting. The great man theory of history. It's making you look a bit of a tit.

I’’m not saying that grass roots activism isn’t very important. Essential. That’s obvious. I’m right wing now???

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

Actually, not particularly learned.

That’s a shot from 2 metres, I obviously know this.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I’’m not saying that grass roots activism isn’t very important. Essential. That’s obvious. I’m right wing now???

Your view of how it happened certainly sounds more like a right wing or at least Liberal account. Its pretty widely accepted that the Beveridge report was going to be implemented whoever won that election. There were differences, the liberals and tories both favoured more of an insurance based welfare state as opposed to the solidaristic model introduced by Labour but there would have been a welfare state and an NHS whoever the government was. And I do think the NHS is/was better as introduced by Labour than it would otherwise have been but I credit bevan with that, not Attlee and bevan was a very different kind of politician. But the fact remains that we've got the NHS and a welfare state because the entire political class had it forced upon it from below, not because there was a Labour government. Labour's Keynesian social democracy was the consensus for at least two decades after (there is debate over exactly how long especially on the left) and there's a reason for that.

 

[Dandred]

It has swung to the right since I joined.

 

[8ball]

That’s a shot from 2 metres, I obviously know this.

‘Tis but a scratch.

 

[Ming]

Your view of how it happened certainly sounds more like a right wing or at least Liberal account. Its pretty widely accepted that the Beveridge report was going to be implemented whoever won that election. There were differences, the liberals and tories both favoured more of an insurance based welfare state as opposed to the solidaristic model introduced by Labour but there would have been a welfare state and an NHS whoever the government was. And I do think the NHS is/was better as introduced by Labour than it would otherwise have been but I credit bevan with that, not Attlee and bevan was a very different kind of politician. But the fact remains that we've got the NHS and a welfare state because the entire political class had it forced upon it from below, not because there was a Labour government. Labour's Keynesian social democracy was the consensus for at least two decades after (there is debate over exactly how long especially on the left) and there's a reason for that.

So we got public health care rather than an insurance based system. Good. I actually agree with you that change comes from the grassroots. I remember Chomsky talking about the anti war and civil rights movements that radicalized him rising from below (and MLK being an important figurehead but not to forget he was just that...don’t forget the freedom riders).

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

‘Tis but a scratch.

THERE ARE MORE THINGS IN HEAVEN AND EARTH, HORATIO etc etc

 

[A380]

Yeah. So fuck the welfare state and Clement Attlee then? Is anything enough?

No, for some professional revolutionaries nothing is pure enough. After all if it was how would they know they were better than everyone else?

I'll reverse the argument. What's the left's greatest victory then? That has improved the lives of the greatest amount of people in the most meaningful way?

I believe the left’s greatest triumph was a 1987 double sided Gestetna mimeographed pamphlet put out by the people’s revolutionary socialist party (Marxist /Leninist ( popular front) ) that, in font size six, with no paragraphs, proved that every other revolutionary group active at the time, and in the 60 years before were, in fact, counter revolutionary running dogs as evidenced by their line on Lenin’s 1919 pamphlets on the role of automatic telephone exchanges in supporting socialism. And if you disagree it’s because you are a fascist.

 

[stuff_it]

More left win than Voat.

 

[Ming]

No, for some professional revolutionaries nothing is pure enough. After all if it was how would they know they were better than everyone else?



I believe the left’s greatest triumph was a 1987 double sided Gestetna mimeographed pamphlet put out by the people’s revolutionary socialist party Marxist /Leninist ( popular front) ) that, in font size six, with no paragraphs, proved that every other revolutionary group active at the time, and in the 60 years before were, in fact, counter revolutionary running dogs as evidenced by their line on Lenin’s 1919 pamphlets on the role of automatic telephone exchanges in supporting socialism. And if you disagree it’s because you are a fascist.

Yeah i remember that one. Very soft and absorbent.

 

[1979]

Hipster anarchists. Strong Left. When will there be a multicultural far right group .

 

[krtek a houby]

Hipster anarchists. Strong Left. When will there be a multicultural far right group .

Sleeper account activated.

 

[Ming]

Hipster anarchists. Strong Left. When will there be a multicultural far right group .

Paleo-hipsters mate. The real deal. Not these 'neo-hipsters'.

 

[Ming]

Sleeper account activated.

Ninj, Firky, TP or Ernesto?

 

[krtek a houby]

Ninj, Firky, TP or Ernesto?

Data not available yet. Processing.

 

[Ming]

Data not available yet. Processing.[/QUOT

Who ever it is i'm sure they'll call out our tainted souls and arrogant Guardianista hypocrisy in double quick time.

 

[krtek a houby]

Who ever it is i'm sure they'll call out our tainted souls and arrogant Guardianista hypocrisy in double quick time.

I imagine it will play out exactly as it has done, hundreds of times, before. Sigh. Such predictability.

 

[Humberto]

Who ever it is i'm sure they'll call out our tainted souls and arrogant Guardianista hypocrisy in double quick time.

It is a truism though that we get nothing given to us, that is, the working class. What we have we have taken, demanded and got through extra-parliamentary pressure.

 

[Ming]

It is a truism though that we get nothing given to us, that is, the working class. What we have we have taken, demanded and got through extra-parliamentary pressure.

Very true.
I work in psychiatry and i have a firm belief that there's a strong correlation between empathy (a biological function rooted in the amygdala) and a person's politics. The less empathic you are the more right wing you are likely to be. Try reading 'Snakes in Suits' by Robert Hare (who created the psychopathy rating scale) and Paul Babiak. It's about psychopaths in the work place (and high places generally). Psychopaths don't give up their assets and power easily and without a fight.
I think this issue in the coming years will effect everything (particularly selection for high office, the law and criminal culpability). Boris and Trump are probably going to score quite high on the Hare PCL-R.

 

[Ming]

No, for some professional revolutionaries nothing is pure enough. After all if it was how would they know they were better than everyone else?



I believe the left’s greatest triumph was a 1987 double sided Gestetna mimeographed pamphlet put out by the people’s revolutionary socialist party (Marxist /Leninist ( popular front) ) that, in font size six, with no paragraphs, proved that every other revolutionary group active at the time, and in the 60 years before were, in fact, counter revolutionary running dogs as evidenced by their line on Lenin’s 1919 pamphlets on the role of automatic telephone exchanges in supporting socialism. And if you disagree it’s because you are a fascist.

Just as an aside. Everyone hates 'New Labour' right? Not me. I got a career out of them. My nursing cohort (2004) was the biggest in John Moores Uni's history (according to the head of the course). And i was coming off the back of about 4 years of addiction and mental health problems. They had the money to take a chance. When i was mentoring a newly qualified on her preceptorship a few years after i qualified she told me how difficult it was to even get a place. And no bursary and fees. Barriers deliberately put in place to under source the NHS to soften it up for privatisation. That's the real world difference between going 'that way' (to the left) and going 'that way' (to the right).