How left wing is this forum?

[Proper Tidy]

Bollocks. That was the greatest victory of the left in the history of this country and there's no way the Tories would have brought it in. That's a complete assumption on your part.
So is there anything to celebrate? Or should Attlee and Bevan hang their heads in shame?

Was William Beveridge a Labour man then? Had no idea

 

[Ming]

Was William Beveridge a Labour man then? Had no idea

More assumptions. I can't believe I've just read 'fuck Attlee'. So nothing to celebrate then (answer the question)?

 

[Serge Forward]

You think the Labour government was responsible for the NHS?

 

[Proper Tidy]

More assumptions. I can't believe I've just read 'fuck Attlee'. So nothing to celebrate then (answer the question)?

What am I assuming here exactly?

 

[Ming]

We are not living in an alternative history timeline. In this one (reality) the NHS was created in 1948 by Bevan under a Labour government. And if that (and the welfare state) aren't things to celebrate (and defend as they're currently under attack) then I guess I'm not idealogically pure enough. Good luck to Beveridge for some excellent ideas (not all Tories are mental) but his party (my assumption now) would have been a lot less likely to enact them than Labour.

 

[Ming]

What am I assuming here exactly?

That the Tories would have enacted Beveridge's ideas.

 

[chilango]

More assumptions. I can't believe I've just read 'fuck Attlee'. So nothing to celebrate then (answer the question)?

.

He commisioned an independent nuclear deterrent for the UK. He used 13,000 troops and passed special legislation to promptly end the London dock strike in 1949

Yeah. Fuck Attlee.

 

[DotCommunist]

Clem 'malayan emergency' Atlee.

 

[Ming]

.

Yeah. Fuck Attlee.

Well with regards to nukes. Smart move. The genie was out the bottle. Better to have something and not need it. Don't at all agree with his actions regarding the strike. I'm an ex CPSA union rep and I've helped organize and stood on a picket line by the way. But it doesn't invalidate the creation of the NHS and the welfare state.

 

[Ming]

Clem 'malayan emergency' Atlee.

Wars. We'll never see the end of them. Being the leader of a country can be a difficult thing in the times that you live in.

 

[Ming]

Any thumbs ups for the welfare state and the NHS? On this left wing forum.

 

[DotCommunist]

Lets hear it for the crumbs, ladies and gentlemen, a big hand for the crumbs that have fallen from the table. Which we built. And stocked.

 

[Proper Tidy]

That the Tories would have enacted Beveridge's ideas.

Did the tories, like the rest of the political class, accept and adopt keynesianism in post war period?

 

[Serge Forward]

Nowt wrong with ushering in the NHS but I think you're giving the Labour Party a bit too much credit.

 

[Ming]

Did the tories, like the rest of the political class, accept and adopt keynesianism in post war period?

Stick with reality. Not alternative timelines. It was Labour who created the welfare state and the NHS. I'm aware that Keynes was trying to save capitalism from itself but let's stick with the facts yeah?
So. Again. Any cheers for the welfare state and the NHS comrades?

 

[Proper Tidy]

We are not living in an alternative history timeline. In this one (reality) the NHS was created in 1948 by Bevan under a Labour government. And if that (and the welfare state) aren't things to celebrate (and defend as they're currently under attack) then I guess I'm not idealogically pure enough. Good luck to Beveridge for some excellent ideas (not all Tories are mental) but his party (my assumption now) would have been a lot less likely to enact them than Labour.

Also Beveridge wasn't a tory as well as not being labour

 

[Ming]

Nowt wrong with ushering in the NHS but I think you're giving the Labour Party a bit too much credit.

So more a slow hand clap than a cheer? Jesus. Any Tories reading this must be pissing themselves. I'm out.

 

[Ming]

Also Beveridge wasn't a tory as well as not being labour

Liberal. Sorry.

 

[Ming]

I'll reverse the argument. What's the left's greatest victory then? That has improved the lives of the greatest amount of people in the most meaningful way?

 

[Proper Tidy]

I'll reverse the argument. What's the left's greatest victory then? That has improved the lives of the greatest amount of people in the most meaningful way?

The right to collectively bargain and withdraw labour

 

[Ming]

The right to collectively bargain and withdraw labour

Well, that's a hard one to disagree with (lol).
OK, I like Attlee, Bevan and the welfare state and the NHS. There. I've said it.

 

[planetgeli]

The right to collectively bargain and withdraw labour

And how is this victory going now comrade? You been in a strike since the miners were defeated? I have. No fucking fun.

Get real.

 

[redsquirrel]

I'll reverse the argument. What's the left's greatest victory then? That has improved the lives of the greatest amount of people in the most meaningful way?

Fuck "the left". What's changed the lives of labour is it's own actions, it's own organisation and empowerment. The Labour Party didn't create the NHS, the working class did.

 

[Ming]

Fuck "the left". What's changed the lives of labour is it's own actions, it's own organisation and empowerment. The Labour Party didn't create the NHS, the working class did.

Clue's in the name.

 

[chilango]

Any thumbs ups for the welfare state and the NHS? On this left wing forum.

It is the production and reproduction of that means of production so indispensable to the capitalist: the labourer himself.

 

[redsquirrel]

Clue's in the name.

And so the LP, the party that sold out, attacked and betrayed workers repeatedly, the party who's purpose is to manage the working class becomes synonymous with the working class.

This is almost as mad as your crap about Cameron secretly supporting the leave vote.

This right here is the real division.

 

[Ming]

And so the LP, the party that sold out, attacked and betrayed workers repeatedly, the party who's purpose is to manage the working class becomes synonymous with the working class.

This is almost as mad as your crap about Cameron secretly supporting the leave vote.

This right here is the real division.

Erm. So fuck Attlee? Fuck Labour, fuck the welfare state and fuck the NHS?
ETA: And you say I'm crazy.

 

[redsquirrel]

The first two - absolutely. The second two - has anyone said anything remotely like that, no.

 

[chilango]

I'll defend the NHS and the welfare state on the basis that the "changes" proposed are not in our interests either, and what we've got is better than what we're being offered.

But ultimately I want a damn sight more than what we've got.

 

[Proper Tidy]

And how is this victory going now comrade? You been in a strike since the miners were defeated? I have. No fucking fun.

Get real.

Yeah I have and yeah it's pretty shit. Still, collective bargaining and action has delivered many of the improvements the working class has gained since it was born. Whether working class organisation equals the left is debatable tho