Hillsborough Independent Panel findings and release of documents.

[ViolentPanda]

Im saying I have no clue but that the NUJ were giving an opposite picture to the one here in about 84/85 & Id love to see the evidence that proves one right, or wrong.

I don't recall there being an NUJ line on football or football fans in the mid-'80s, and as I was a member at the time, I should recall it.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh dear it is this then: You can say again and again that i haven't, and that i must therefore admit that i 'made it up' - but i tell you here and now billy, you ain't fooling anyone by trying that trick.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't recall there being an NUJ line on football or football fans in the mid-'80s, and as I was a member at the time, I should recall it.

Billy was probably FOC of the biggest newsroom in the country at the time i expect.

 

[Maltin]

Thats one of the things Im trying to find out, & butchersapron seems determined not to answer in a straight fashion, for some reason calling me by alien names, trying to fudge issues & refusing to provide evidence.

At present the NUJ looks a lot more reliable.

You really need evidence to determine whether a members organisation is likely to portray its members in a negative light or not? I can't see how the NUJ are likely to be an objective source of evidence in relation to their members.

Asking someone to post evidence related to a disparate group of people 23 years ago prior to the Internet age is probably quite difficult and time consuming so it is unsurprising that butchers hasn't been able to necessarily support it.

Why you feel unable to post this apparently opposing view that you have been told is bizarre though.

 

[Teaboy]

Are you suggesting that you dont expect to ever see this evidence either?

tbh honest you're not coming across great here. I for one would love to see some of your evidence, because I was listening to the radio the other day and their was a journo on who had covered the story from the tragedy through the cover up to the recent findings and he was basically saying exactly the same as BA when asked why the journos of the time had not investigated properly and just took the word of the police as gospel.

Of course I can't remember the guys name so you won't accept this as evidence, but given its our null hypothesis do you have any information the contrary?

 

[Ash Mahay]

I don't recall there being an NUJ line on football or football fans in the mid-'80s, and as I was a member at the time, I should recall it.

No. About reporters, not about fans & in response to attacks against some NUJ members, not inline with the print unions over Wapping.

More familiar now?

 

[ViolentPanda]

i don't think you have to be middle class to be disturbed or disgusted by the behaviour of some football fans then and now.

You're missing my point, which is that disgust wasn't just exhibited at the hooliganism of "some" fans, but at normal terrace and post-match boisterousness of most fans. For a time in the '70s and '80s the TV companies had cameras out on the streets following supporters in the hope that something kicked off, even at "family" clubs like Fulham.

 

[Teaboy]

No. You have provided no evidence, which is increasingly suggesting you made it up & given the nature of this thread if thats true you are sick. So put up or shut up. No more BS. Present your evidence.

Calm it down stampy feet.

This is a very important issue and deserves better then childish ego.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Billy was probably FOC of the biggest newsroom in the country at the time i expect.

If he was, then his name certainly can't really be Ash Mahay.
I got scolded by our FOC for baa-ing at the editor.

 

[Ash Mahay]

Calm it down stampy feet.

This is a very important issue and deserves better then childish ego.

I agree. I was there. Thats one reason I asked for proof & why I dnt appreciate bs on the matter.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No. You have provided no evidence, which is increasingly suggesting you made it up & given the nature of this thread if thats true you are sick. So put up or shut up. No more BS. Present your evidence.

Starting in with the accusations of people having mental health problems again, I see.

 

[Teaboy]

I agree. I was there. Thats one reason I asked for proof & why I dnt appreciate bs on the matter.

You're not getting bs at all, you're getting a reasoned argument which you may disagree with, me (like I'm sure everyone else is) would love to know your reasons for disagreement.

Incidentally, if you don't mind me asking, when you say you were there, in what capacity?

 

[Ash Mahay]

Starting in with the accusations of people having mental health problems again, I see.

Are you telling me its not sick to make things up about such an event?

For 23 years Ive held its a sick practice. Im saddened if people are suggesting its ok.

 

[Teaboy]

Are you telling me its not sick to make things up about such an event?

For 23 years Ive held its a sick practice. Im saddened if people are suggesting its ok.

I'm beginning to have my doubts about you.

 

[butchersapron]

Are you telling me its not sick to make things up about such an event?

For 23 years Ive held its a sick practice. Im saddened if people are suggesting its ok.

I'd like you to point out exactly where i've made up anything about hillsborough.

Then i'd like you to offer your outline of this profile of news and football reporters you claimed that the NUJ presented you with in 85/5 and the evidence it offered for its case. Wapping was 86 btw so a profile relating to this dispute a year before it started would be very interesting.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You really need evidence to determine whether a members organisation is likely to portray its members in a negative light or not? I can't see how the NUJ are likely to be an objective source of evidence in relation to their members.

The NUJ have historically been a halfway decent union when it came to fighting the bosses (and I emphasise "halfway", because it's usually been the membership taking the lumps, not the national officers), but they've always (as with any union) striven to present the membership in the best light - it's one of their reasons for being.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are you telling me its not sick to make things up about such an event?

For 23 years Ive held its a sick practice. Im saddened if people are suggesting its ok.

What's he made up that's germane to the actual tragedy, rather than how it, and the victims were portrayed?

Fuck all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No. About reporters, not about fans & in response to attacks against some NUJ members, not inline with the print unions over Wapping.

More familiar now?

Nope, and the only attacks I recall (including Peter McKay taking a blinder to the nose) were usually in reaction to a specific story on a specific person.
Then again, I was only a lowly sub-ed on a national, what do I know?

 

[Ash Mahay]

You're not getting bs at all, you're getting a reasoned argument.

No, in a reasoned argument, if someone presents something as fact & are asked to provide the evidence they based those statements on, they either present the evidence or state its an opinion & not backed by evidence.

What they dont do is avoid presenting that evidence, lie, or attack.

Incidentally, if you don't mind me asking, when you say you were there, in what capacity?

I lived in Nottingham at the time & my friend, who was a Liverpool supporter got two tickets for the match & knowing I liked my football he invited me along (the match was against Forest so there were local bragging rights & other things at stake as well).

 

[Ash Mahay]

What's he made up that's germane to the actual tragedy, rather than how it, and the victims were portrayed?

Fuck all.

Apart from possibly his whole fabricated rant?

Are you really trying to defend this?

 

[Ash Mahay]

Nope, and the only attacks I recall (including Peter McKay taking a blinder to the nose) were usually in reaction to a specific story on a specific person.
Then again, I was only a lowly sub-ed on a national, what do I know?

So you do remember the tensions & accusations?

 

[Teaboy]

Apart from possibly his whole fabricated rant?

Are you really trying to defend this?

Nah, you're not real. On the bloody Hillsborough thread as well, sheesh.

 

[Ash Mahay]

On the bloody Hilsborough thread as well, sheesh.

Thats exactly my point. On a thread about people lying & trying to make political gain from a horrible tragedy?

Youd expect someone to be extra careful to be honest & willing to back up their words.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Apart from possibly his whole fabricated rant?

Except that he hasn't fabricated anything, despite your attempts to label him otherwise.
Why not just answer his question if you believe him to have fabricated what he said? Surely it's a surefire way to show him up as a liar if you're right?

Are you really trying to defend this?

Am I defending what he's said? Let's just say that I'd like to know the answer to his question too, to see if it marries up with what I remember.
Am I defending someone of known integrity? Fucking right I am.

 

[butchersapron]

Thats exactly my point. On a thread about people lying & trying to make political gain from a horrible tragedy?

Youd expect someone to be extra careful to be honest & willing to back up their words.

You've got three things to do now.

1) Respond to the evidence i presented - critique it, take it apart, whatever but respond.
2) Post your outline of the profile you were given of news and football reporters in 84/5 and precis the evidence it offereed for its case.
3) Find me lying about Hillsborough.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you do remember the tensions & accusations?

I remember a few of the more overpaid prima donnas getting a fit of the vapours that they might get a smack for their more scurrilous bollocks, but I don't recall any general worry that any NUJ member was a target (except perhaps by Redwatch).

 

[butchersapron]

Just to remind people or people who can't be bothered to go back and look - my lies about Hillsborough in full:

There's a couple of very important points to bear in mind when looking at the role that individual journalists played or failed to play in the immediate aftermath, then the inquests then the long years afterwards.

Firstly, a lot of the reporting was by news reporters who were a) not part of football culture and didn't understand the way fans were treated, the way we were herded like cattle etc and b) used to talking to the police and using them as their primary source - questioning and criticising them is the fast path to getting yourself cut off from those sources.

Secondly, the football reporters at that time were on the whole, private school and university educated outsiders to football culture as well - they wrote about the supporters with barely concealed contempt ( a contempt that i imagine took was directed at the whole class those supporters mainly came from) and thought the conditions that the fans had to put up with was tough shit, their own fault - this was always particularly evident in the reporting on england away games. Since then there is a whole new generation of football writers who grew up with and came out of that football culture that the previous generation of football writers despised - they understand what happened and why (i'm talking about people like Tony Evans here).

Why would people like this dig any deeper? Why would people like this take the victims and their families questions and experiences seriously?

 

[Ash Mahay]

Except that he hasn't fabricated anything, despite your attempts to label him otherwise.
Why not just answer his question if you believe him to have fabricated what he said? Surely it's a surefire way to show him up as a liar if you're right?

Are you really trying to defend this?

Am I defending what he's said? Let's just say that I'd like to know the answer to his question too, to see if it marries up with what I remember.
Am I defending someone of known integrity? Fucking right I am.[/quote]

Lets get somethings straight.

Firstly I asked for proof, not because I doubted him, but because what he said directly contradicted what Id heard before on the parts I highlighted.

Its what I do. Its what most people do. If someone tells them something & then someone else comes along & tells them something different you ask them for proof, dont you?

What have I had in response to that?

Not evidence, thats for sure.

Ive had a guy avoid backing up his statement, trying to fudge the issue, a few insults, a made up name & other bs.

Everything in fact apart from any evidence & lets face it, on this thread more than any other, because of its subject matter, youd expect a man to be desperate to back things up, wouldnt you?

I didnt call him a liar, but I have said his behaviour is consistent with a liar, because we both know it is.

Sure, hes your buddy, you want to take his side, but we both know his actions are not consistent with that of an honest man.

Does that make him a liar? No, but it does ask questions that any reasonable man would want answers to.

Your running inteference, under such circumstances is a defence, in the same way that a lie of omisson is still a lie, despite nothing being said.

Now I dont care about your views concerning his past integrity, all I asked was a simple question, can he provide evidence of what he said.

Can he?

Its a simple question that hes avoided a straight answer too over a period of several days and many posts.

How about you push for the truth, instead of for your friends?

Or are you still having day dreams about cannon fodder?

 

[butchersapron]

Lets get somethings straight.

Firstly I asked for proof, not because I doubted him, but because what he said directly contradicted what Id heard before on the parts I highlighted.

Your first lines. Let's look shall we?

]Do you doubt these things?[/B] (i've included your bold in my original). Let's get this clear if we're going to do this.

Your response:

Yes, & I'll tell you why. Around that time I was given a completely different profile of these people & obviously when given two completely oppossing views you will obviously have doubts & ask for evidence.

Come on.

 

[butchersapron]

Lets get somethings straight.

Firstly I asked for proof, not because I doubted him, but because what he said directly contradicted what Id heard before on the parts I highlighted.

Its what I do. Its what most people do. If someone tells them something & then someone else comes along & tells them something different you ask them for proof, dont you?

What have I had in response to that?

Not evidence, thats for sure.

Ive had a guy avoid backing up his statement, trying to fudge the issue, a few insults, a made up name & other bs.

Everything in fact apart from any evidence & lets face it, on this thread more than any other, because of its subject matter, youd expect a man to be desperate to back things up, wouldnt you?

I didnt call him a liar, but I have said his behaviour is consistent with a liar, because we both know it is.

Sure, hes your buddy, you want to take his side, but we both know his actions are not consistent with that of an honest man.

Does that make him a liar? No, but it does ask questions that any reasonable man would want answers to.

Your running inteference, under such circumstances is a defence, in the same way that a lie of omisson is still a lie, despite nothing being said.

Now I dont care about your views concerning his past integrity, all I asked was a simple question, can he provide evidence of what he said.

Can he?

Its a simple question that hes avoided a straight answer too over a period of several days and many posts.

How about you push for the truth, instead of for your friends?

Or are you still having day dreams about cannon fodder?

I have provided you with a series of 'evidences' (all of which you repeatedly ignore) based on the findings of the panel, personal experience, incidents that took place at the time and developments that would indicate the existence of the gap i suggested existed. You have provided nothing, ignored requests to back up your claim of this profile of news and football reporters you were given and what it said - call me cynical but i'm starting to suspect that you sort of you know...made it up.

You can say again and again that i haven't, and that i must therefore admit that i 'made it up' - but i tell you here and now billy, you ain't fooling anyone by trying that trick.