Griffin and BNP strategy

[geoff64]

In the absence of this alternative, or anything looking like it on the horizon, its down to No Platform as the only tactic on offer to stop them.

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by No Platform.

I'm broadly in agreement with the concept provided that calls for state bans etc are not part of the strategy.

I'm very much a libertarian as far as freedom of speech is concerned (although I don't subscribe to the idea that it is absolute), and I don't think the BNP should be prevented from expressing their ideas. Physical confrontation, the kind of No Platform strategy pursued by AFA for example, was a necessity in its time. However, as soon as the BNP ended the war on the streets, a strategy of physical confrontation became redundant. What is necessary is to ensure that their ideas are challenged, so by all means let's organise and demonstrate. Is that what you mean, or do you mean by No Platform that they should be silenced by any means necessary?

 

[The Black Hand]

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by No Platform.

I'm broadly in agreement with the concept provided that calls for state bans etc are not part of the strategy.

I'm very much a libertarian as far as freedom of speech is concerned (although I don't subscribe to the idea that it is absolute), and I don't think the BNP should be prevented from expressing their ideas. Physical confrontation, the kind of No Platform strategy pursued by AFA for example, was a necessity in its time. However, as soon as the BNP ended the war on the streets, a strategy of physical confrontation became redundant. What is necessary is to ensure that their ideas are challenged, so by all means let's organise and demonstrate. Is that what you mean, or do you mean by No Platform that they should be silenced by any means necessary?

I think it is up to local groups to do what they see fit. I see nothing wrong with some duffing the BNP up and some opposition politically. It is not contradictory cos they are working towards the same anti fascist goals...

 

[Joe Reilly]

Agreed, but noone here has yet offered a means for anti-fascists to achieve this. if we don't have an 'organic' presence in these communities how do we take the fight to them without (and apologies for repeating myself) being perceived as outsiders who can be dismissed on those grounds irrespective of the strength of the argument?

Joe Reilly, Butchersapron, Durutti and others, you seem to agree with what i have been arguing, what's your take on this? Do we all get together and 'parachute' into Canning Town (for eg) with leaflets? Or what?

No parachuting. Looking at from 'a long war' perspective the best thing to do is to begin to set the foundations for the progressise working class alaternative in the area you already live in. That way no one can accuse you of being an outsider, which as you rightly suggest can be very toxic.

And don't worry, either the BNP will turn up there sooner or later - or if your sufficiently succesful- will side step it for a neighbouring one. Either way you will be ticking all the anti-fascist boxes, which is to say help provide political barrier to further BNP encroachment in one specific working class area as well as developing a working alternative to the mainstream parties on a national basis.

Crucial ingredient? A suitable indivividual to to put their head over the parapet and be the public face of the initiative.

 

[The Black Hand]

No parachuting. Looking at from 'a long war' perspective the best thing to do is to begin to set the foundations for the progressise working class alaternative in the area you already live in. That way no one can accuse you of being an outsider, which as you rightly suggest can be very toxic.

And don't worry, either the BNP will turn up there sooner or later - or if your sufficiently succesful- will side step it for a neighbouring one. Either way you will be ticking all the anti-fascist boxes, which is to say help provide political barrier to further BNP encroachment in one specific working class area as well as developing a working alternative to the mainstream parties on a national basis.

Crucial ingredient? A suitable indivividual to to put their head over the parapet and be the public face of the initiative.

I just cannot agree. Where the BNP are trying to make inroads into a whole new area clearly there is an imperative to not let them get established. There is ALWAYS some locals on our side who will do stuff too... I see nothing wrong with anti fascist solidarity. Yours is not so much politics but an abdication of politics.

 

[JimPage]

I just cannot agree. Where the BNP are trying to make inroads into a whole new area clearly there is an imperative to not let them get established. There is ALWAYS some locals on our side who will do stuff too... I see nothing wrong with anti fascist solidarity. Yours is not so much politics but an abdication of politics.

agree with you here. while joes proposed strategy of building support where you are, in your own council ward, makes absolute sense- for 90% of your political life. However, when they come to town in a new area, (which they have in the past 3 months in council areas like castle point, rugby, hatfield and harrow), and which often caught antifascist off guard as well, what to do in the 3 weeks notice we get before polling day?

some sort of action usually No Platforming them, is the only realistic option at hand. yes, it is an damning indictment of the left for not organising in these areas before them, but its what, in reality we have with a still exanding BNP

and if they are new in town, old schooltactics like explaining to people that the BNP are Nazis still has its place

 

[geoff64]

jim, re post 1141, what do you mean by No Platform?

 

[durruti02]

I just cannot agree. Where the BNP are trying to make inroads into a whole new area clearly there is an imperative to not let them get established. There is ALWAYS some locals on our side who will do stuff too... I see nothing wrong with anti fascist solidarity. Yours is not so much politics but an abdication of politics.

attica you are way behind the times .. the bnp, and sympathies, for the bnp are way ahead of anti fascism .. all anti fascism does now is wind up people and probably push them into being more overt supporters of the bnp .. i am reminded of canute .. you think we are at a stage where a bit of militant antifa can stop the BNP??? this is absurd mate and do you hinestky think it would NOT be happenning if we could?? do you think that RA the key anti fascists of our generation made the political jump to radical localism ( or whatever .. the IWCA turn ) for a laugh??? we do NOT have teh forces we had in teh 7ts and early 8TS .. and that is what we need to do .. rebuild that .. ( p.s. in some areas your strategy will be correct .. but only in a minority of places)

it is anti facism which is actually in reality the abdication of politics .. what JR proposes is correct and without this we are f'ed

 

[The Black Hand]

attica you are way behind the times .. the bnp, and sympathies, for the bnp are way ahead of anti fascism .. all anti fascism does now is wind up people and probably push them into being more overt supporters of the bnp .. i am reminded of canute .. you think we are at a stage where a bit of militant antifa can stop the BNP??? this is absurd mate and do you hinestky think it would NOT be happenning if we could?? do you think that RA the key anti fascists of our generation made the political jump to radical localism ( or whatever .. the IWCA turn ) for a laugh??? we do NOT have teh forces we had in teh 7ts and early 8TS .. and that is what we need to do .. rebuild that .. ( p.s. in some areas your strategy will be correct .. but only in a minority of places)

it is anti facism which is actually in reality the abdication of politics .. what JR proposes is correct and without this we are f'ed

I disagree - there are enough anti fascist forces to do things which includes local work. I think yours and Joes is radical helplessness. Infact I would go as far as to say that it is ultra leftism that does not think strategically. I am not discounting local work, but you should build a political map of britain, and chart where you think the BNP are trying for next. That is, if you seriously want to stop them... First confine them to the areas they are in, then surround and destroy

 

[geoff64]

perhaps you could accuse the iwca model as radical helplessness. I'd prefer to look at the situation with some objectivity and admit that unless local anti-fascist groups exist, then challenging the BNP effectively in those areas where they are doing well will be extremely difficult.

Attica, you sound like an armchair theorist. Who exactly is going to do the surrounding and attacking?

 

[The Black Hand]

perhaps you could accuse the iwca model as radical helplessness. I'd prefer to look at the situation with some objectivity and admit that unless local anti-fascist groups exist, then challenging the BNP effectively in those areas where they are doing well will be extremely difficult.

Attica, you sound like an armchair theorist. Who exactly is going to do the surrounding and attacking?

I suggest armchair theorists are those who do not do anything imaginative - they are confined to a minute area which will never change anything. Fact.

Havel the socialist suffered for his politics in the Czech republic, after the fall of the wall he said 'nobody knows what spirit lies within the population' (paraphrase). History has confirmed that so many times already. Empiricism (the 'realist' collection of supposed 'facts') is not a Marxist method, and Joe and others suffer from that badly (it is not anti fascism either).

If you only do what you know you can do you WILL NEVER AFFECT THE POLITICAL SITUATION OR POLITICAL POSSIBILITIES. It was Lenin who said "only those who do nothing make no mistakes", and he was right on that one

I was talking strategically - it is the Art of War. Confining them into an area i suggested was to be done by anti fascists, including local forces, the class composition of this i would imagine will be the multitude(s). I am building a forward dynamic into the plan as you have to, otherwise you have radical helplessness (ultra leftism).

 

[geoff64]

If you only do what you know you can do you WILL NEVER AFFECT THE POLITICAL SITUATION OR POLITICAL POSSIBILITIES. It was Lenin who said "only those who do nothing make no mistakes", and he was right on that one

.

hmmm, i don't pretend to undertsand some of what you've said here, but this makes sense. i suppose joe et al would think that they have seen a great deal of misatkes made by anti-fascists in the past and hope to try something else. what they propose - localised community politics to innoculate areas from fascist influence - makes perfect sense to me, and it seems to be a strategy worth arguing for with other anti-fascists. i would have thought that the hard work necesary to build local community politics (Joe referred to it as 'the long war') could hardly be considered accepting the status quo; on the contrary it seems to be a serious attempt at 'affecting [shouldn't that be effecting?] the political situation'?

My Q iro of this strategy is how anti-fascists can spread it beyond the localities in which they operate to encompass those where they don't, and into those areas where the BNP have made headway. But i'm just repeating myself now ...

 

[The Black Hand]

hmmm, i don't pretend to undertsand some of what you've said here, but this makes sense. i suppose joe et al would think that they have seen a great deal of misatkes made by anti-fascists in the past and hope to try something else. what they propose - localised community politics to innoculate areas from fascist influence - makes perfect sense to me, and it seems to be a strategy worth arguing for with other anti-fascists. i would have thought that the hard work necesary to build local community politics (Joe referred to it as 'the long war') could hardly be considered accepting the status quo; on the contrary it seems to be a serious attempt at 'affecting [shouldn't that be effecting?] the political situation'?

My Q iro of this strategy is how anti-fascists can spread it beyond the localities in which they operate to encompass those where they don't, and into those areas where the BNP have made headway. But i'm just repeating myself now ...

'Affect' above means "make a difference to" in the copy of the Oxford English dictionary I have here.

That is the problem they have faced. 15 years since they started they have got nowhere from where they started. It's ultra leftism by another name.

I think it can be argued that is is accepting the status quo, cos if you practice politics which doesn't change anything, or stand a chance of changing anything, and confronts nothing, then it is the status quo by another name.

 

[Joe Reilly]

hmmm, i don't pretend to undertsand some of what you've said here, but this makes sense. i suppose joe et al would think that they have seen a great deal of misatkes made by anti-fascists in the past and hope to try something else. what they propose - localised community politics to innoculate areas from fascist influence - makes perfect sense to me, and it seems to be a strategy worth arguing for with other anti-fascists. i would have thought that the hard work necesary to build local community politics (Joe referred to it as 'the long war') could hardly be considered accepting the status quo; on the contrary it seems to be a serious attempt at 'affecting [shouldn't that be effecting?] the political situation'?

My Q iro of this strategy is how anti-fascists can spread it beyond the localities in which they operate to encompass those where they don't, and into those areas where the BNP have made headway. But i'm just repeating myself now ...

The lesson anti-fascists learned in east London in 1993-4 is that to be effective on the door, you have to be for something as well as being against something. Currrently anti-fascism is for the mainstream parties - that is what it offers up as an alternative. This plays into the BNP's hands.

Also even Searchlight has admitted that purely negative campaigning has little real effect - as little as 5% of the vote - when it works well. This could concievably prevent the BNP getting a seat now and again but that is about it.

As a tactic 'No platform' is ineffective without the threat of extreme violence. What afterall have the BNP activists who harvest the votes and their strategists to concern themselves about?

Finally the BNP are popping up all over the place. It is impossible to predict where they will establish an electoral bridgehead next. Even if you could anticipate their plans you would need to have the manpower to match the enthusisasm of their membership to have any effect. For instance in one by-election they put out 11 leaflets.

Like it or not we are now in the era of 'the battle of ideas'. The IWCA came out of anti-fascism but should not really be seen as an anti-fascist tactic per se - it is broader than that, and I would argue has already developed a working strategy for others to copy.

Ps Just for record the IWCA first stood in 2002, not circe 1992 as has been implied. As for 'armchair theorists' nothing wrong in principle as long as they produce something to chew over now and again.

What is just a tad irritating is 'armchair generals' who urge others to do what they are unwilling to do themselves.

 

[The Black Hand]

Ps Just for record the IWCA first stood in 2002, not circe 1992 as has been implied. As for 'armchair theorists' nothing wrong in principle as long as they produce something to chew over now and again.

What is just a tad irritating is 'armchair generals' who urge others to do what they are unwilling to do themselves.

Give over Joe, you started circulating stuff in the early 9T's and hung up your gloves then too. You are still inneffective all these years l8r, even starting from your later date you've not done anything at all. The trick is getting new constituencies or creating new forms of engagement, and you have not. You remain an ultra left clique, like the other ultra left cliques. As for armchair theorists if only I was like you, who never get out of their armchair to do anything new

 

[The Black Hand]

Those polite BNp members in suits again

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2008/03/393258.html

At the turn of the year officers from the Post Office Security Team based at London's main sorting office at Mount Pleasant intercepted a package from the USA which contained a Tazer gun, known as a stun gun, now in widening use by the Metropolitan Police Service. The addressee was a 23 year old man, one Ellis Hammond. The P.O.security team passed on the address and details of the contents of the package to the police in South East London. It took them only minutes to realise that Hammond was a serving officer in the Police Community Safety unit based in their command area.

In no time, they were at his family home detaining him and carrying out what was said to be a very thorough search. They found the following:

1 CS Tear Gas Canister
1 Police style ASP retractable baton
1 pair of Metropolitan Police-issue Handcuffs
I Knuckle-Duster
8 combat knives
DVDs with Hate material on them
Various items of British National Party literature
Some Obscene material
25-30 mainly imported T Shirts from the USA bearing nazi and White Power groups symbols and with hard line racist and nazi slogans on them
4 BB Guns
1 Replica AK 47 Assault Rifle
1 Copy of the Turner Diaries the US publication that has served as a blueprint for nazi terrorism in the USA, written by the late William Pearce, a close friend of the BNP who has played host to them at his National Alliance HQ in the USA and was guest of honour at a BNP annual meeting in East London some years ago.
And finally to top it off, a British National Party membership card...

 

[cockneyrebel]

I agree with those that say a political alternative is the thing that is needed. I think the best anti-fascist political theorists have always recognised that a positive message is needed and the policy of no platform, while definatley having a place, is a defensive measure. (I'd also agree with JRs comments that no platform needs to be backed up to be effective. The left at the moment isn't exactly full of types able to implement it in reality. I remember when I used to read about WP/Revolution going out near Leeds and saying they would use organised self-defence. In reality they were mostly middle class students and two or three BNP security would have battered the lot of them. People might as well be honest about it).

I think geoff is right that at the moment it is very hard as the far left is in disarrary and weaker than it's been for 100 years. The same goes for the unions.

But then JR says:

the best thing to do is to begin to set the foundations for the progressise working class alaternative in the area you already live in.

Essentially I agree with this but it's still a fact that there are quite a few IWCA supporters on here and on other boards from different parts of the country who have supported them for quite a while. They come from places like Manchester, Bristol, Northhampton etc and yet none of them has been able to set up an IWCA branch or come anywhere near it. Indeed one of them openly said they can't find a single person to agree with them.

It's all good and well putting the IWCA method forward as some holy grail but most of its supporters outside Oxford and Hackney and Islington don't seem to be able to run with it.

I'd also say that rebuilding the unions is a crucial task, as important as anything. Something the IWCA seems to almost entirely ignore. Large anti-facist movements have always had their core in the workers movement.

 

[Joe Reilly]

I agree with those that say a political alternative is the thing that is needed. I think the best anti-fascist political theorists have always recognised that a positive message is needed and the policy of no platform, while definatley having a place, is a defensive measure. (I'd also agree with JRs comments that no platform needs to be backed up to be effective. The left at the moment isn't exactly full of types able to implement it in reality. I remember when I used to read about WP/Revolution going out near Leeds and saying they would use organised self-defence. In reality they were mostly middle class students and two or three BNP security would have battered the lot of them. People might as well be honest about it).

I think geoff is right that at the moment it is very hard as the far left is in disarrary and weaker than it's been for 100 years. The same goes for the unions.

But then JR says:



Essentially I agree with this but it's still a fact that there are quite a few IWCA supporters on here and on other boards from different parts of the country who have supported them for quite a while. They come from places like Manchester, Bristol, Northhampton etc and yet none of them has been able to set up an IWCA branch or come anywhere near it. Indeed one of them openly said they can't find a single person to agree with them.

It's all good and well putting the IWCA method forward as some holy grail but most of its supporters outside Oxford and Hackney and Islington don't seem to be able to run with it.

I'd also say that rebuilding the unions is a crucial task, as important as anything. Something the IWCA seems to almost entirely ignore. Large anti-facist movements have always had their core in the workers movement.

I hesitate to answer this post because regardless what is said some people stick to one point like a mantra. Here goes. No one here is recomending the 'IWCA method' - there may be better ones. What I was stressing is the importance of a direct orientation to working class communities. Doing if you like what the BNP are already doing as a way of combatting them on the estates. Two councillors in a former mining town stood for precisely that reason and though not in the IWCA as such succesfully used the IWCA 'method' in doing so. So it can be done.

As for the alternative strategy championed; ie 'rebuilding the unions' and so forth. If it is as I suspect industrial unions you are talking about, that would require an industrial working class. For that to happen there would surely need to be a second industrial revolution. But don't let that stop you. Just let us know when you've finished.

 

[cockneyrebel]

You say it's sticking to one point like a mantra, but if things remain the same then the same points will be made. The far left (including the IWCA), have remained pitifully small over the last 10-15 years and actually declined yet further. At the same time the BNP has grown significantly.

And while I agree with an orientation to working class communities, the fact still remains that no-one has had much success with that. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep trying, but clearly no-one has all the answers and we all have a lot to learn. But if you listen to many people on the left they speak and act as if their way is the holy grail for the way forward.

I'm also very sceptical that the BNP method of organising can be copied by the left. As in reality they do fuck all for working class communities and just use sound bites. However because many of their ideas are backed up by the media either directly or indirectly they have a much easier time of it.

Two councillors in a former mining town stood for precisely that reason and though not in the IWCA as such succesfully used the IWCA 'method' in doing so. So it can be done.

Out of interest what is this example? Have you got a link to it?

As for the alternative strategy championed; ie 'rebuilding the unions' and so forth. If it is as I suspect industrial unions you are talking about, that would require an industrial working class. For that to happen there would surely need to be a second industrial revolution. But don't let that stop you. Just let us know when you've finished.

Where did I mention the industrial unions? The remaining ones obviously have a part to play but I meant all unions. Unions like the PCS and UNISON have some of the poorest workers in the country, but aren't industrial unions. The IWCA seems to think that the work place and unions can just be ignored. I think that any decent and large anti-fascist movement would have to have the unions at its core (and in nearly all the cases I can think of in the past has done).

Also as I've said before union struggles and community struggles go hand in hand. Where I work we are linking up the issues of rent rises and privatisation and linking union struggles with tenants associations.

Also I think it's an idea if union branches, together with local communities, could start backing candidates on an anti-privatisation basis or something similar.

 

[audiotech]

Thursday's by-election results

Middlesborough Gresham ward:

Lab 584 (47.95)
Ind 377 (30.95)
BNP 135 (11.08)
L-D 78 (6.40)
Con 44 (3.61)

Total 1218

Middlesborough Marton West ward:

Con 993 (63.01)
Lab 413 (26.21)
BNP 170 (10.79)

Total 1576

Harrow Marlborough ward:

Lab 972 (41.43)
L-D 628 (26.77)
Con 507 (21.61)
BNP 94 (4.01)
Ind 74 (3.15)
Grn 71 (3.03)

Total 2346

 

[The Black Hand]

Thursday's by-election results

Middlesborough Gresham ward:

Lab 584 (47.95)
Ind 377 (30.95)
BNP 135 (11.08)
L-D 78 (6.40)
Con 44 (3.61)

Total 1218

Middlesborough Marton West ward:

Con 993 (63.01)
Lab 413 (26.21)
BNP 170 (10.79)

Total 1576

Harrow Marlborough ward:

Lab 972 (41.43)
L-D 628 (26.77)
Con 507 (21.61)
BNP 94 (4.01)
Ind 74 (3.15)
Grn 71 (3.03)

Total 2346

Crap results them.

 

[durruti02]

Crap results them.

the threat of the BNP getting 10%+ was once talked of in shock .. we now take that 10% as a failure on their part .. boy oh boy

 

[sally_sally]

I cant see the BNP ever getting more than that really. Also I think when they first stand they are a novelty, after the first time voting people refer back to the other 3.

The BNP, like the Green party, Respect and other small parties will always be just that. I feel that the time and energy that goes in to knocking the BNP can at times be counter productive.

Sal

 

[JimPage]

Crap results them.

no, far from crap for a first time electoral outing in Middlesbrough, beating the tories and liberals. Where exactly was the left candidate?

 

[JimPage]

Bit of info on BNP may elections

1. 50 Candidates in Wales

2. Fighting over one sixth of English Local election seats for grabs, allowing them their first local elections PPC out of london. Full slates may well be stood in a number of Northern English towns - all 4 tyneside councils and sunderland for example
3. GLA. Fighting mayor, city and east constituency and party list

 

[The Black Hand]

Bit of info on BNP may elections

1. 50 Candidates in Wales

2. Fighting over one sixth of English Local election seats for grabs, allowing them their first local elections PPC out of london. Full slates may well be stood in a number of Northern English towns - all 4 tyneside councils and sunderland for example
3. GLA. Fighting mayor, city and east constituency and party list

Where from? Internal party news? Off their web site?

 

[The Black Hand]

Where exactly was the left candidate?

Couldn't be bothered.

 

[The Black Hand]

no, far from crap for a first time electoral outing in Middlesbrough, beating the tories and liberals.

It's crap cos it is irrelevant. Just cos they got a few votes more that the pathetically low vote the tories and liberals got means nothing. Nothing anyway related to actually winning the seat.

 

[The Black Hand]

the threat of the BNP getting 10%+ was once talked of in shock .. we now take that 10% as a failure on their part .. boy oh boy

If that is the case then perhaps the ultra leftists will think about their politics a bit harder perhaps? 'Got it alone' clearly IS NOT working in any way that can be considered relevant or succesful to the political situation on a national level. That after all is where it matters, the national effect, not 1 or 2 local irrelevances.

 

[Frostys Lodger]

According to Torbay BNP organiser, Lucas, The BNP will be fighting 2-3 seats in Exeter in the May elections. 1st time outing there.

 

[geoff64]

If that is the case then perhaps the ultra leftists will think about their politics a bit harder perhaps? 'Got it alone' clearly IS NOT working in any way that can be considered relevant or succesful to the political situation on a national level. That after all is where it matters, the national effect, not 1 or 2 local irrelevances.

I note you using this phrase ultra-left a lot. can youi explain what you mean by that? do you just mean a way of doing things that is not embraced by the majority of anti-fascists?

I would hardly have thought that contesting the bnp on their own ground via community politics (hardly an extreme left battleground afterall - housing, anti-social behaviour, local facilities) was ultra-left in itself. The fact that few people seem to be doing it is a mystery really. Those that think that this strategy is a useful one surely have to argue their case with others.

Why is that ultra-left??

I would have thought that theoretical anarchism was just as marginalised (more so), yet you have no problem arguing that.

Or have I misunderstood something?