Greek elections

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't really see how this country could be any more Atlanticist. How would that translate into policy exactly?

You're right that it's the path we're already on and have been on for decades. But even more deregulation, removal of more worker rights, introduction (ironically enough) of more of an individual legal rights culture than one of collective entitlement.

And perhaps a more active 'little satan' role internationally.

tbh I'm not entirely sure what the atlanticist right wants. I do know it's not good though, cos they are cunts.

 

[MochaSoul]

Sure. It's a great hat. Never goes out of fashion. But my other fear about the UK leaving the EU (to derail for a second) still stands - it has parallels to the fear of Varoufakis about Greece leaving the euro - it potentially empowers the 'atlanticist' right in the UK who want to tie the UK even more closely to the US.

Fair enough. But do also remember that Varoufakis himself said that the Euro was an American creation, aided to conception by American economists who "banged Delors, Mitterrand's and Kohl's heads together" until they acquiesced to a sort of US of Europe. It's not, by no means, the case that the Americans are ever far away.
In the present moment, I look at the harshness of the neoliberal EU and what freedom of movement has meant to the British working class and the long term economy of, say, Portugal even before 2008 and I see more no nos than I'd like to see.

 

[pocketscience]

Lagarde begging to be let back to the poker table

US Treasury secretary Jack Lew and the IMF’s Christine Lagarde on Wednesday sought to increase pressure on European leaders to grant debt relief to Greece and help the country avoid an exit from the eurozone.

In separate interventions in Washington both said it was clear that Greece was in need of a “debt restructuring” in an implicit call for Germany and others to drop their opposition to any forgiveness of Greek debts.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/48d03356-2583-11e5-bd83-71cb60e8f08c.html#axzz3fLCZvTdr

If Tsipras had just rolled over like a lap dog 3 weeks ago ("this is your last chance - we damand a decision tomorrow" lol) and paid up, no doubt she would have taken the money regardless and wouldn't have said a word...

Yeah, shit negotiators Yaroufakis and Tsipras

 

[youngian]

not happy about the general feeling expressed here, ie Its all the fault of Germany
So sorry but the same peeps who claim that "democracy" means they don't have to pay off debt accumulated via previously democratically elected governments..
Can you spot the logical inconsistency in that?
Curiously enough the French are not snivelling about how much Germany owes them as they too were invaded
Whatever people may think of Merkel - personally I love her, not in a pervy way mind - she and her country have been thru astonishingly harsh times - please have a look at what German workers have been paid over the last few years and then honestly say they have not taken pain?
Why should someone in Vilnius for example pay for someone in Greece to write off their debts while they struggle thru 5 foot deep snow in the winter?
Or why should Bulgarians who have more refugees per head then Greece has ever had, pay them to sit on their fat arses?
Unless you have actually pledged to put money into the mental scheme to crowd finance Greece - if you have, it was a mad move - why should THOSE people, all MUCH POORER than the average Greek, subsidise them?
Greedy stupid and misguided, every govt the greek people have voted for has been absolutely shit at dealing with reality
If I were Merkel, I'd offer to buy ALL greek debt at 30c in the Euro, then tell em to fuck off
do it on yer own
Their vile blackmail really is so shit, they gotta fuck off
This Not the way do deal with those you claim you want to share a currency with
that can only be based on trust
I trust them like some typical twat trying to sell pills on a street corner

Eastern bloc countries benefitted handsomely from US and international aid to entice them into the West. But leaving that aside why do any governments want to spend more time and energy on this never ending farce? They are subsidising a programme that isn't working for the Greeks with most of the money recycled to prop French and German banks which don't seem to be subject to the same moral hazard philosophy as Greece. That's because governments have taken a pragmatic view over bank liquidity. And the world will keep turning if Greece has its debts written off.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In the present moment, I look at the harshness of the neoliberal EU and what freedom of movement has meant to the British working class and the long term economy of, say, Portugal even before 2008 and I see more no nos than I'd like to see.

Yep, it's not pretty. And the basis of the UK's welfare system was in place well before the UK joined the EU. My reasons for not being entirely convinced about the UK leaving the EU are entirely negative and pessimistic ones.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And the world will keep turning if Greece has its debts written off.

Exactly. And it is 'when', not 'if'. The 'how' is the only question.

 

[youngian]

Exactly. And it is 'when', not 'if'. The 'how' is the only question.

And a catastrophic failure of leadership from the EU and Europe's most powerful leaders that they've managed to cause a population to give a mandate to their government to commit financial armegeddon. From a country that had no tangible leverage to negotiate with.

 

[MochaSoul]

 

[MochaSoul]

 

[Diamond]

Key point here - this is not about debt. Greek debt, though proportionally large to its GDP is relatively insignifcant.

It is about constitutional politics.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Key point here - this is not about debt. Greek debt, though proportionally large to its GDP is relatively insignifcant.

It is about constitutional politics.

It's about which promises you keep. Do you keep your promise to the Greek people to provide schools and hospitals and other essential services, or do you keep a promise to a bank? Sometimes you can't do both.

The Greek govt at the moment is being bullied into keeping promises to banks over promises to people. And that is purely and simply an exercise, or attempted exercise, in brute power. Stripped down, it's simply the rich demanding to be paid over and above the poor.

 

[youngian]

Sure. It's a great hat. Never goes out of fashion. But my other fear about the UK leaving the EU (to derail for a second) still stands - it has parallels to the fear of Varoufakis about Greece leaving the euro - it potentially empowers the 'atlanticist' right in the UK who want to tie the UK even more closely to the US.

Support for Brexit in the US is at the cranky end of the Republican Party. Most of the Washington establishment have solid geo-political reasons for the UK to remain in the EU.

 

[Diamond]

Excellent stuff and largely spot on.

I would not want him to be my lead negotiator though.

You can imagine he'd rub eurocrats up the wrong way, mainly by being so strident...

(although not necessarily wrong)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Support for Brexit in the US is at the cranky end of the Republican Party. Most of the Washington establishment have solid geo-political reasons for the UK to remain in the EU.

Yep very true. The 'special relationship' has always been a one-sided thing anyway. The US powers that be don't care too much about it.

Doesn't mean they wouldn't take advantage of a UK separated from the EU and see the chance even of a kind of political union with the UK. The UK already has an uneven extradition treaty with the US. They might want to extend that kind of thing - making US laws more and more applicable here, for instance.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Excellent stuff and largely spot on.

I would not want him to be my lead negotiator though.

You can imagine he'd rub eurocrats up the wrong way, mainly by being so strident...

(although not necessarily wrong)

There's the rub, though. Why is he negotiating with eurocrats?

We have an absurd situation where the EU might fall apart without its political leaders being at the meeting where the falling apart is finally decided on.

 

[Diamond]

It's about which promises you keep. Do you keep your promise to the Greek people to provide schools and hospitals and other essential services, or do you keep a promise to a bank? Sometimes you can't do both.

The Greek govt at the moment is being bullied into keeping promises to banks over promises to people. And that is purely and simply an exercise, or attempted exercise, in brute power. Stripped down, it's simply the rich demanding to be paid over and above the poor.

That's not really the constitutional issue, it's more - join a currency union, you will issue debt cheaply as a result, we will borrow to fund public projects, that will produce a public and private boom, our government will cook the books, we get screwed when, as typical with financial frauds (which is basically what this was but except on a national scale), the crunch hits and then everyone is left to pick up the pieces. And then the structural constitutional bits come in to make it much, much, more worse than it ever needed to be without currency union.

 

[youngian]

Doesn't mean they wouldn't take advantage of a UK separated from the EU and see the chance even of a kind of political union with the UK. The UK already has an uneven extradition treaty with the US. They might want to extend that kind of thing - making US laws more and more applicable here, for instance.

I've no doubt you're right. As would Putin would offer generous trade terms as a price worth paying to pull Britain away from the European orbit. I hope the geopolitical debate doesn't get lost in the EU referendum by a bunch of business bean counters talking mumbo-jumbo about trade advantage.

 

[Diamond]

It's about which promises you keep. Do you keep your promise to the Greek people to provide schools and hospitals and other essential services, or do you keep a promise to a bank? Sometimes you can't do both.

The Greek govt at the moment is being bullied into keeping promises to banks over promises to people. And that is purely and simply an exercise, or attempted exercise, in brute power. Stripped down, it's simply the rich demanding to be paid over and above the poor.

I disagree with that.

Greece entered the Euro without economic reform and it's now shafted.

The responsibility for the outcome rests on the entire franchise.

In my experience most Greeks would not have trouble with that point of view.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

... and the banks lose out because they made bad bets and lent money to the wrong people without doing due diligence...

Oh wait, but these are German and French and Dutch and Belgian and British banks.

So they must be bailed out by the German and French and Dutch and Belgian and British governments, and those governments must go after the money that should never have been lent in the first place.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I disagree with that.

Greece entered the Euro without economic reform and it's now shafted.

The responsibility for the outcome rests on the entire franchise.

In my experience most Greeks would not have trouble with that point of view.

If by 'the entire franchise', you mean the whole EU, I agree entirely. Everybody knew Greece's situation when they joined the euro. And the benefits that accrued to others from the likes of Greece joining have been enjoyed for years.

But that's why the idea that Greece's debt should be written down, if not entirely written off, isn't some kind of charity or largesse towards Greece. It is an acceptance of collective guilt for the situation and collective responsibility to sort it out. And that is what appears to be entirely lacking, where blaming Greece for its problems serves a purpose - hiding the responsibility of others and the benefits to themselves others saw in acting as they did.

 

[hipipol]

aw its sad
I took you 12 years olds working out what you think nay just, at the edge of logic, might be important as true thought
my fault
go away mumies boys

 

[hipipol]

Eastern bloc countries benefitted handsomely from US and international aid to entice them into the West. But leaving that aside why do any governments want to spend more time and energy on this never ending farce? They are subsidising a programme that isn't working for the Greeks with most of the money recycled to prop French and German banks which don't seem to be subject to the same moral hazard philosophy as Greece. That's because governments have taken a pragmatic view over bank liquidity. And the world will keep turning if Greece has its debts written off.

the banks no longer have any risk
tiny lickle arse seepage
they are total miniscule bollocks
Shanghai - they have lost 30 times the greek wank slotters in 5 days
buy em out, fuck em off soon as, best for all
<ed: offensive comment remomved>

 

[NoXion]

Batty man? What charming language!

 

[two sheds]

You're tipping over the edge again hipipol . The thread has been very informative, you're largely not adding anything to it but just insulting people.

 

[phildwyer]

I would not want him to be my lead negotiator though.

You can imagine he'd rub eurocrats up the wrong way, mainly by being so strident...

For what it’s worth I don’t blame Syriza for what’s happened.

Perhaps its initial, antagonistic, negotiating stance wasn’t the best in the circumstances.

My main problem is with the negotiating techniques used
these guys are supposedly smart
but they wnet about it in such a confrontational way

His tone doesn't matter. His "stance" doesn't matter. The names he calls the Germans don't matter. Usurers make their decisions based on the logic of capital, not on whether or not they like you.

 

[co-op]

You're tipping over the edge again hipipol . The thread has been very informative, you're largely not adding anything to it but just insulting people.

I think butchersapron nailed it; hipipol = coke head.

 

[J Ed]

Before this you trolling was just an annoying distraction but now you are pasting lyrics from homophobic songs. Fuck off.

 

[Coolfonz]

that actually does not address the question posed
I'm NOT saying that the decisions of the rulers may be good for us as individuals, but what would you have in its place?
oh man I am getting battered by so many brickbats from peeps who really need to debate, not just kneejerk love of mad non justified rhetoric (how Greek?)that I regret posting something which was about not going all racist on Germany
oh bollocks, enough
Have a nice time pumping up your bigotry and predestined bias

Don't post while you're high.

 

[J Ed]

Excellent stuff and largely spot on.

I would not want him to be my lead negotiator though.

You can imagine he'd rub eurocrats up the wrong way, mainly by being so strident...

(although not necessarily wrong)

He's honest and intelligent, he is an academic who understands economics. His counterparts claim to be all of these things but aren't, I can see why that would rub them up the wrong way.

 

[J Ed]

Don't post while you're high.

Don't post while you're high and a dick*