Greek elections

[happie chappie]

I think they'll reach a deal. The debts will be reduced and the repayment stuctures will be spread out over a further period. Greece will restructure their household...

Never the less, I think a better alternative would be if the Eu used this to define an exit process that provides support to greece (or any other euro country) to leave and set up a new currency (either their own or probably better a €v2.0).

Then we agree - at least on the first sentence.

The second would not be an alternative to the current situation but something that could be considered in the future. It would take a long time to plan and implement whereas the Greek crisis is immediate.

One snag is that a process for an orderly exit form the Euro and a Mk2 currency is that it would create a good deal of uncertainty. No-one would be sure who would be staying in and who would be leaving. Would the exit be permanent or reversible at some point in the future?

There would have to be complete monetary and fiscal union to prevent the possibility a re-run of the current crisis. The ECB and the Eurozone Finance Minsiters would have an even bigger say than they have now.

There would have to be agreement on convergence criteria for a MK2 Euro. What happens if a county couldn't meet these? Would they have to issue it's own "third class" currency outside of the Euro Mk1 and Mk2? If so they would effectively be out of the Eurozone altogether.

Further, banks would be wary of lending Euros to a country that might pay them back in a second class, or even third class, "alternative".

All in all I don't think it's viable. You're either in or you're out.

 

[phildwyer]

You do seem to have a lot of strange ideas about giving people money on the basis that they pay you back with interest.

If they seem 'strange' to you that can only be due to the paucıty of your readıng ın the hıstory of ıdeas. The lendıng of money at ınterest has been condemned by every theologıcal and phılosophıcal system from Arıstotle to Marxısm. Interest had no defenders at all prıor to the feeble-mınded Bentham ın the eıghteenth century. Hostılıty to ınterest on both moral and practıcal grounds ıs one of the very few constant unıversals ın the opınıon of mankınd.

I know that some of these rest on religious principles but what exactly is wrong with debt?

Although ıt ıs true that every major relıgıon (yes ıncludıng Judaısm) has condemned usury that has lıttle to do wıth my own objectıons. Those are too numerous to lıst ın full so I wıll be content to mentıon the facts that (a) money ıs a sıgn representıng alıenated labor and thus not rıghtfully ın the possessıon of the usurer to lend and (b) where usury ıs permıtted all wealth and thus all power rapıdly falls ınto the hands of usurers. The current sıtuatıon ın Greece beıng a prıme ınstance thereof.

 

[phildwyer]

This is silly. The fact almost nobody tips the table over in the bank manager’s office and calls him a cunt before asking for money suggests it’s not the best strategy.

It really and truly does not matter. If the bank manager thınks you wıll repay hım wıth suffıcıent ınterest he wıll lend you money even ıf you call hım a bıtch-ass mutherfucker. If he belıeves you wıll faıl to do so he would not lend you money even ıf you worshıpped hıs farts. Should he allow personal consıderatıons to enter ınto such decısıons he would not remaın a bank manager for longer than two seconds.

The bank is liable to tell you to take your business elsewhere.

Foe Greece there is no “elsewhere”. It’s the Troika or nothing.

That remaıns to be seen. There ıs wealth ın the world beyond the lands controlled by the Troıka I belıeve.

 

[Diamond]

If they seem 'strange' to you that can only be due to the paucıty of your readıng ın the hıstory of ıdeas. The lendıng of money at ınterest has been condemned by every theologıcal and phılosophıcal system from Arıstotle to Marxısm. Interest had no defenders at all prıor to the feeble-mınded Bentham ın the eıghteenth century. Hostılıty to ınterest on both moral and practıcal grounds ıs one of the very few constant unıversals ın the opınıon of mankınd.



Although ıt ıs true that every major relıgıon (yes ıncludıng Judaısm) has condemned usury that has lıttle to do wıth my own objectıons. Those are too numerous to lıst ın full so I wıll be content to mentıon the facts that (a) money ıs a sıgn representıng alıenated labor and thus not rıghtfully ın the possessıon of the usurer to lend and (b) where usury ıs permıtted all wealth and thus all power rapıdly falls ınto the hands of usurers. The current sıtuatıon ın Greece beıng a prıme ınstance thereof.

OK, let's step through this piece by piece.

Let's say I have ten pounds in my wallet.

You ask for it because you want to use it as a unit of exchange for something else.

When I give it to you two things happen as follows:

(i) I can no longer use that money myself for my own interests; and

(ii) I may never get that money back if you make a bad decision.

To mitigate those risks, I charge you interest on that money at a market rate.

What is wrong with that?

 

[gosub]

Assuming neither side is bluffing, how do you think this is going to end?

A deal offering better terms agreed by Sunday, the Oxi brigade do some more cheering, it passes the German parliament with what looks likes a comfortable majority. Merkel's coalition splits. Finland fails to pass it. Greece defaults on its EU debt payment, leaves the EUro and is completely fucked, Oxi brigade spend their time coming up with 101 reasons why the Finnish are cunts. Humanitarian aid program instigated

 

[Idris2002]

Tsipras vs. some fucking boring Belgian cunt:

Regarding the frightful ass from Belgium:

http://www.thepressproject.net/article/62514/Money-on-the-side-and-lots-of-it-for-Guy-Verhofstadt

"As TPPi reported , there is a clear conflict of interest between Mr Verhofstadt’s role as a legislator and his position on the board of the multi-billion euro Belgian investment holding company Sofina which has interests in multiple sectors including a stake in the highly controversial planned privatization of the Thessaloniki water utility."

The facebook contact I got this from also had a thread where someone said that one MEP (not the boring Belgian bastard) was heard to recommend a Pinochet solution. Has anyone else heard about that?

 

[not-bono-ever]

OK, let's step through this piece by piece.

Let's say I have ten pounds in my wallet.

You ask for it because you want to use it as a unit of exchange for something else.

When I give it to you two things happen as follows:

(i) I can no longer use that money myself for my own interests; and

(ii) I may never get that money back if you make a bad decision.

To mitigate those risks, I charge you interest on that money at a market rate.

What is wrong with that?

You miss the point - is the place for this - really?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Regarding the frightful ass from Belgium:

http://www.thepressproject.net/article/62514/Money-on-the-side-and-lots-of-it-for-Guy-Verhofstadt

"As TPPi reported , there is a clear conflict of interest between Mr Verhofstadt’s role as a legislator and his position on the board of the multi-billion euro Belgian investment holding company Sofina which has interests in multiple sectors including a stake in the highly controversial planned privatization of the Thessaloniki water utility."

The facebook contact I got this from also had a thread where someone said that one MEP (not the boring Belgian bastard) was heard to recommend a Pinochet solution. Has anyone else heard about that?

The President of the EU Parliament had this to say:

Schulz on Thursday told German Handelsblatt business daily that "new elections would be necessary if the Greek people vote for the reform programme and thus for remaining in the eurozone and Tsipras, as a logical consequence, resigns."

The time between the departure of Tsipras’ hard-left SYRIZA party and new elections would have to "be bridged with a technocratic government, so that we can continue to negotiate," Schulz was quoted as saying.

"If this transitional government reaches a reasonable agreement with the creditors, then Syrizas time would be over," he said. "Then Greece has another chance."

http://www.ekathimerini.com/198842/...ays-greek-govt-should-resign-after-a-yes-vote

Utter fucking scum.

 

[MochaSoul]

What is wrong with that?

Everything.

If you have other stuff to put the money on then don't lend it.
If there is a risk of you not getting the money back then don't lend it. If you do then you share the risk with the borrower.
To call "lending with interest" a "mitigation of risk" is a fallacy. You either get the money back or you don't. Calling it "risk mitigation" allows you only to extort more money from poorer quarters who need loans for essential stuff than richer ones who'll borrow for luxuries.

 

[trabant]

Regarding the frightful ass from Belgium:

http://www.thepressproject.net/article/62514/Money-on-the-side-and-lots-of-it-for-Guy-Verhofstadt

"As TPPi reported , there is a clear conflict of interest between Mr Verhofstadt’s role as a legislator and his position on the board of the multi-billion euro Belgian investment holding company Sofina which has interests in multiple sectors including a stake in the highly controversial planned privatization of the Thessaloniki water utility."

The facebook contact I got this from also had a thread where someone said that one MEP (not the boring Belgian bastard) was heard to recommend a Pinochet solution. Has anyone else heard about that?

The spectacle reached its climax as Polish monarchist Janusz Korwin-Mikke, a man with no apparent skin in the game inasmuch as Poland doesn’t use the euro, called for a well-meaning heroic general to save Greece the way, errrr, the way Augustin Pinochet ‘saved’ Chile.

http://fortune.com/2015/07/08/how-t...row-tsipras-to-the-lions/?xid=timehp-category

Edit: forgot to add: cunt.

 

[gosub]

The President of the EU Parliament had this to say:



http://www.ekathimerini.com/198842/...ays-greek-govt-should-resign-after-a-yes-vote

Utter fucking scum.

So if Cameron had lost the Scots referendum, you think he could have stayed?

 

[trabant]

http://fortune.com/2015/07/08/how-t...row-tsipras-to-the-lions/?xid=timehp-category

Edit: forgot to add: cunt.

 

[Diamond]

Everything.

If you have other stuff to put the money on then don't lend it.
If there is a risk of you not getting the money back then don't lend it. If you do then you share the risk with the borrower.
To call "lending with interest" a "mitigation of risk" is a fallacy. You either get the money back or you don't. Calling it "risk mitigation" allows you only to extort more money from poorer quarters who need loans for essential stuff than richer ones who'll borrow for luxuries.

But what if the "other stuff" is more risky than the borrower?

And, more to the point, what if the borrower would otherwise be unable to gain access to the money?

 

[Diamond]

It's pretty nuts to argue against the charging of interest on lending - there's no more surefire way to seize up the economy than that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So if Cameron had lost the Scots referendum, you think he could have stayed?

Possibly. Who knows? But it still would not be the EU commissioner's place to say that he had to go and dictate that an unelected dictatorship of the 'technocrat' (ie capitalist money-system functionary) should take charge of 'reforms' (for which, of course, read public sector cuts).

tbh that is an absolutely extraordinary declaration of intent. Fuck democracy, they are saying. Fuck it to damn hell.

 

[MochaSoul]

But what if the "other stuff" is more risky than the borrower?

It's your money. If you decide to "risk it" on your head it is.

And, more to the point, what if the borrower would otherwise be unable to gain access to the money?

In a world without the idea of interest, people would lend/borrow at their own risk. But there sure wouldn't be people enriching themselves on the backs of borrowers.

It's pretty nuts to argue against the charging of interest on lending - there's no more surefire way to seize up the economy than that.

Only because lending with interest already exists and people/businesses/countries in need have to navigate the waters of such a world. It doesn't mean lending with interest is morally good or generally good for societies at all. You don't have to go further than looking at the imbalance in treatment between a borrower USA and a borrower Greece on this. It's not like "risk" is not, conceptually, a matter of perception.

ETA: You don't have to be religious to see all of this, btw. I know I'm not.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Diamond - please fuck off. People are here to talk and learn about the situation in greece. Go and have a pointless argument somewhere else.

 

[Diamond]

It's your money. If you decide to "risk it" on your head it is.



In a world without the idea of interest, people would lend/borrow at their own risk. But there sure wouldn't be people enriching themselves on the backs of borrowers.



Only because lending with interest already exists and people/businesses/countries in need have to navigate the waters of such a world. It doesn't mean lending with interest is morally good or generally good for societies at all. You don't have to go further than looking at the imbalance in treatment between a borrower USA and a borrower Greece on this. It's not like "risk" is not, conceptually, a matter of perception.

Why would you lend anyone any money at all without interest?

What would be the point of that?

 

[MochaSoul]

Why would you lend anyone any money at all without interest?

What would be the point of that?

Open another thread.

People are here to talk and learn about the situation in greece. Go and have a pointless argument somewhere else.

I agree.

ETA: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/usury.318844/

 

[Athos]

OK, let's step through this piece by piece.

Let's say I have ten pounds in my wallet.

You ask for it because you want to use it as a unit of exchange for something else.

When I give it to you two things happen as follows:

(i) I can no longer use that money myself for my own interests; and

(ii) I may never get that money back if you make a bad decision.

To mitigate those risks, I charge you interest on that money at a market rate.

What is wrong with that?

This is a thread specifically about the Greek situation; please don't derail it with a long discussion about the usury generally - this post would be the perfect start to a thread of its own.

 

[pocketscience]

Then we agree - at least on the first sentence.

The second would not be an alternative to the current situation but something that could be considered in the future. It would take a long time to plan and implement whereas the Greek crisis is immediate.

One snag is that a process for an orderly exit form the Euro and a Mk2 currency is that it would create a good deal of uncertainty. No-one would be sure who would be staying in and who would be leaving. Would the exit be permanent or reversible at some point in the future?

There would have to be complete monetary and fiscal union to prevent the possibility a re-run of the current crisis. The ECB and the Eurozone Finance Minsiters would have an even bigger say than they have now.

There would have to be agreement on convergence criteria for a MK2 Euro. What happens if a county couldn't meet these? Would they have to issue it's own "third class" currency outside of the Euro Mk1 and Mk2? If so they would effectively be out of the Eurozone altogether.

Further, banks would be wary of lending Euros to a country that might pay them back in a second class, or even third class, "alternative".

All in all I don't think it's viable. You're either in or you're out.

Ignoring the more important humanitarian cost for the moment. Everything has a price. Right now, the Eu with it's attitude will stand to lose upwards of 320bn for Greece alone. Depending on who you listen to it's 2.12tn for the PIIGs. I'm sure the Eu can come up with a watertight process to create a parallel currency for a minute fraction of that cost.
Other than that, there's always the option of throwing Germany out

 

[Diamond]

Open another thread.



I agree.

ETA: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/usury.318844/

This is a thread specifically about the Greek situation; please don't derail it with a long discussion about the usury generally - this post would be the perfect start to a thread of its own.

Fair enough. Let's get back on topic to Greece directly.

 

[Kaka Tim]

As far as i can see the only compromises have come from the greek side. The troika have just carried on making the same impossible demands and then getting all het up cos the greeks cant agree to them.
fucking la la land. "Rules are rules" apparently - even when the rules are impossible to keep to and are totally counter productive.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Possibly. Who knows? But it still would not be the EU commissioner's place to say that he had to go and dictate that an unelected dictatorship of the 'technocrat' (ie capitalist money-system functionary) should take charge of 'reforms' (for which, of course, read public sector cuts).

tbh that is an absolutely extraordinary declaration of intent. Fuck democracy, they are saying. Fuck it to damn hell.

Hard to be anything other than utterly disgusted by these fucking cunt Eurocrat vermin. Merkel, Schulz, Verhofstadt etc. should all be guillotined.

 

[Diamond]

Just heard word from a pal at Thomson Reuters that a deal is "imminent".

Wouldn't reveal the source because it was "very secret".

Not sure I believe him but interesting that the word has just got out to the market.

 

[gosub]

Just heard word from a pal at Thomson Reuters that a deal is "imminent".

Wouldn't reveal the source because it was "very secret".

Not sure I believe him but interesting that the word has just got out to the market.

A chance to make a killing if markets jubilant, it's one thing to agree a deal, another to get it through all the National hoops in 2weeks

 

[not-bono-ever]

should you be posting this stuff up if it is secret ?

 

[two sheds]

should you be posting this stuff up if it is secret ?

Shhhhhh

 

[Lurdan]

Well I hacked into Reuters web server with a copy of Firefox and found this SEKRIT document
Germany concedes Greece needs debt relief; Greek plan awaited - Reuters
ETA: also
Legal grey areas give scope for Greek debt relief if Europe wants it

ETA: the story at the first link has been substantially rewritten and given a new headline since I posted it.

 

[brogdale]

According to the Guardian.....

The Greek government capitulated on Thursday to demands from its creditors for severe austerity measures …

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