give up anti-fascism?

[butchersapron]

I don't care what is in left publications. No-one reads them and they have no influence in the real world.

I'm not saying stay with the status quo of the left at all. What I'm saying is that these ideas are nothing new. A few examples have been mentioned about where these things are being tried but they seem very far and few between.

If people having been raising these ideas for god knows how long and there is very little to show for it, why is there any faith that this will change?

They're not in any publications - that was my point. Who says they've been raised in such a high-profile fashion for ages? I said the exact opposite. Look, sorry, but it's no good you just going 'tell me what to do' and taking a default status quo postion, you have to say something more, tell us what you think needs to happen and how we might get there.

 

[Sue]

One_Stop_Shop, at some point you have to actually put your money where your mouth is rather than just wailing and gnashing you teeth. Obviously when you do, you set yourself up for people sitting in front of their keyboards slagging it off but hey...

For example, I get a bit fed up with people saying 'oh, I really like the IWCA but why haven't they achieved x, y and z yet?' Fair enough that people want to discuss the issues, comment on strategy etc but can't really remember seeing said people actually doing anything to help achieve x, y and z...

What's happening where you live? Why not set something up yourself?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

The IWCA are the only leftwing group who really grasp what's going on and have any kinds of answers IMO.

 

[treelover]

it means pushing for this at a national level, it means setting up those groups - groups that attempt to deal with anti-social behaviour, with dodgy landords, with debt, with sub-standard housing, with problems with the social - it means contacting existing groups, tenents groups, volunteer groups etc to tey and orgnaise into a local network, one of the open access community union type groups talked about, it means organising community activities in order to develop a local public political sphere based around participation and identification - from football tournaments to film nights to mechanics workshops on the evenings.

Hallelujah, great stuff, but will it happen?, we have such a bourgeoisie Left in this country, etc, in a similar vein, did you know Red Pepper has never covered welfare issues and indeed has refused to do so, even when prompted by its (at the time)assistant editor

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

But faith has to be based on reality otherwise it becomes like religion. There is no evidence, despite these ideas being around for a long time (and ideas I support), that they are getting anywhere. You can only give examples that are few are far between.

I'm not saying do the status quo, far from it, so that can be shelved.

What I'm saying is that although I agree with these ideas I can't see them getting anywhere and see no evidence for them getting anywhere.

I do try and do things where I am, although not under the name of the IWCA.

I can see why you get frustrated and fed up, but the fact remains that there doesn't seem any evidence that these ideas are getting anywhere, however much I'd like that not to be the case.

 

[articul8]

Hallelujah, great stuff, but will it happen?, we have such a bourgeoisie Left in this country, etc, in a similar vein, did you know Red Pepper has never covered welfare issues and indeed has refused to do so, even when prompted by its (at the time)assistant editor

don't know the full story with this, but I've a feeling that Red Pepper will be covering welfare issues aa bit more in future

 

[butchersapron]

Hallelujah, great stuff, but will it happen?, we have such a bourgeoisie Left in this country, etc, in a similar vein, did you know Red Pepper has never covered welfare issues and indeed has refused to do so, even when prompted by its (at the time)assistant editor

I had no idea, i don't really read it, there's a new editor who seems to be looking for the right stuff right now though.

 

[Sue]

But faith has to be based on reality otherwise it becomes like religion. There is no evidence, despite these ideas being around for a long time (and ideas I support), that they are getting anywhere. You can only give examples that are few are far between.

I'm not saying do the status quo, far from it, so that can be shelved.

What I'm saying is that although I agree with these ideas I can't see them getting anywhere and see no evidence for them getting anywhere.

I do try and do things where I am, although not under the name of the IWCA.

I can see why you get frustrated and fed up, but the fact remains that there doesn't seem any evidence that these ideas are getting anywhere, however much I'd like that not to be the case.

Locally, things can definitely be achieved. But for them to be achieved, people actually need to go out and get on with it. Unfortunately, most people aren't specially interested in the type or amount of work involved.

Glad to hear you're doing something practical. And the name you're doing it under doesn't matter.

ETA: By the way, I don't get frustrated/fed up with the political work/discussion more the armchair warrior thing.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Hallelujah, great stuff, but will it happen?, we have such a bourgeoisie Left in this country, etc, in a similar vein, did you know Red Pepper has never covered welfare issues and indeed has refused to do so, even when prompted by its (at the time)assistant editor

Yeah but Red Pepper's more aimed at Stoke Newington yoghurt knitting middle class hippies...

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Agree that things on a local level can be achieved but sadly it doesn't seem to move much beyond that that, and examples are all too few.

I don't have the answers about how you change that, but see little evidence for things changing.

 

[treelover]

Reporting on the new community politics, such as it is: LCAP, unemployed/community unions, Left Luggage, Class Crisis, etc, would herald a new start for Red Pepper

 

[Sue]

Agree that things on a local level can be achieved but sadly it doesn't seem to move much beyond that that, and examples are all too few.

The BNP seem to have cracked it.

 

[butchersapron]

Agree that things on a local level can be achieved but sadly it doesn't seem to move much beyond that that, and examples are all too few.

I don't have the answers about how you change that, but see little evidence for things changing.

I've just sussed who you are

 

[treelover]

returning poster?

 

[articul8]

Reporting on the new community politics, such as it is: LCAP, unemployed/community unions, Left Luggage, Class Crisis, etc, would herald a new start for Red Pepper

I believe there's a piece on LCAP coming up as it happens (though maybe not in the next edition) -

 

[butchersapron]

returning poster?

I should;'t have said anthing really, it's not a banned one or troll or anything if i'm right (which i may well not be). Not going to say any more on it though - apols to one-stop-shop

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I doubt very much you know who I am.

But more to the point do you think there is any evidence of anything changing? I can't see it. It is obvious the BNP are making gains, you can see it. The same can't be said of pro-working class forces.

 

[butchersapron]

You're turning the point of the article inside out - it argues these local approaches haven't been tried, not on a sustained serious basis - not that thery have and have made no headway - in fact, the BNP are making headway using them.

 

[durruti02]

I doubt very much you know who I am.

But more to the point do you think there is any evidence of anything changing? I can't see it. It is obvious the BNP are making gains, you can see it. The same can't be said of pro-working class forces.

yes i do see evidence 1) from the left , red action creating the IWCA, SP doing a lot of grass roots work, groups like awl and the commune looking at grassroots work and 2) from the @s definately with a real move to setting up local solidarity groups and regional networks of said groups and 3) from the almost constant level of discussion about such issues e.g. like i said talking to trade council people about community unions ( who had no idea of what red pepper was let alone having read the article )

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

No I accept that these approaches, by and large, haven't been tried. What I'm trying to ask/say is whether that is likely to change. I can't see any evidence for that.

The examples you give are isolated and very few.

 

[durruti02]

No I accept that these approaches, by and large, haven't been tried. What I'm trying to ask/say is whether that is likely to change. I can't see any evidence for that.

The examples you give are isolated and very few.

yes we agree .. now what do you propose to do?

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I haven't got any proposals. I'm just saying it how it is.

It's one thing having good ideas and suggesting a different approach, but until it's implemented it's not a lot of use.

 

[Sue]

God, even I'm feeling depressed now...

 

[Mr T]

UAF have put out their analysis of the 2009 elections - not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere on here, I've only just read it: pdf link

UAF doc p5
We have to build a united, mass anti-fascist movement which confronts racism and Islamophobia head on. That means tackling the racist lies put out by the BNP whether they be about council house allocation, crime or whatever

I think this is the key to it, because while the aim is right, the example of council house allocation demonstrates the contradictions entirely: should anti-fascists get sucked in to saying "but its not true, immigrants aren't prioritised for council housing" and trying to explain whatever system the council has in place, or should we be arguing "council housing should be allocated on the basis of need, and if that means refugees then thats right. The real issue is that there isn't enough council housing!" But how can you have that argument without acknowledging that Labour is responsible for the shortage after being in government for 12 years..etc etc

 

[Sue]

But how can you have that argument without acknowledging that Labour is responsible for the shortage after being in government for 12 years..etc etc

Why would one not acknowledge this?

 

[butchersapron]

I haven't got any proposals. I'm just saying it how it is.

It's one thing having good ideas and suggesting a different approach, but until it's implemented it's not a lot of use.

What 'is' though? You still haven't said.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I accept that these approaches, by and large, haven't been tried. What I'm trying to ask/say is whether that is likely to change. I can't see any evidence for that.

The examples you give are isolated and very few.

Well, if you're building from the ground upwards, that's always going to be the case, isn't it? That doesn't provide you with an excuse for political inertia, though.

 

[durruti02]

I haven't got any proposals. I'm just saying it how it is.

It's one thing having good ideas and suggesting a different approach, but until it's implemented it's not a lot of use.

did you ever watch red dwarf?

 

[durruti02]

UAF have put out their analysis of the 2009 elections - not sure if this has been discussed elsewhere on here, I've only just read it: pdf link



I think this is the key to it, because while the aim is right, the example of council house allocation demonstrates the contradictions entirely: should anti-fascists get sucked in to saying "but its not true, immigrants aren't prioritised for council housing" and trying to explain whatever system the council has in place, or should we be arguing "council housing should be allocated on the basis of need, and if that means refugees then thats right. The real issue is that there isn't enough council housing!" But how can you have that argument without acknowledging that Labour is responsible for the shortage after being in government for 12 years..etc etc

yes thats right and it fails to deal with why we have had migration and what migration means for most people .. it illustrates entirely how the left have lost touch with the w/c .. the simple fact that most ordinary people have picked up on is that immigration is key to neo liberalism / the cheap labour economy and only the swoppy left can't admit it .. it makes no sense, and has never made any sense, for ordinary people to have non uk people do jobs that people in this country can do. until the swoppys deal with this ( as the SP have to a great extent) the will not get a hearing from people and the BNP and their RACIST interpretation of migration ( muslim invasion etc etc ) will be what is heard

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Who cares about the SWP? Why go on about them as if they mean anything. They don't.

As for inertia, well I do quite a bit of stuff myself which is in line with what people are saying here. But the fact remains that the approach that is being described here has not been taken up in many places and shows very little sign of doing so.