Gaza under attack yet again.

[Doctor Carrot]

What the fuck sort of "security" is the state of Israel going to buy with this massacre? So they keep going until they have taken out hamas' capability to fire their whizz bangs - whilst swelling the ranks of the Palestinians who thirst for revenge and are prepared to die seeking it. Not to mention the disgust of most of the worlds population. Some security.

They're not interested in security. If they were I would only have know the conflict as a historical fact in my lifetime and not as an ongoing massacre.

 

[weltweit]

The Israel lobby in the US is extremely powerful & it is a master of propaganda. And do Europeans really have different sympathies? If the EU were a country it would be Israel's largest trading partner. Europe has the power to apply much pressure to Israel but, like America, chooses not to.

I have come across slavish following of the Israel propaganda line from numerous Americans online, not so from Europeans. I am not claiming it is scientific, but when I come across someone who says Hamas is responsible for the killing of Palestinian children, they are almost always American.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

I dislike many citizens of the state of Israel on an individual basis, but I don't hate them as a people. What I do hate is the actions of the state of Israel, and what those actions turn their citizens into - a people complicit with horror.

Yeah I feel like a bit of a cunt for writing that tbf. This is my general feelings on it. A lot of my posts yesterday were made in anger. If I judged a person on the actions of the leaders of the state they lived in I'd probably be the most hate filled person in the world and only enjoy the company of Bhutanese peasants!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Avi Shlaim talks about the Lavon affair in Egypt in the 50s (in his The Iron Wall), but wasn't there also a pogrom in Baghdad in 1941, well before Israel was founded?

IIRC, the Baghdad pogrom was a product of His Eminence the Grand Muff-diver and other pro-Nazi forces.

 

[quiquaquo]

Wow!

 

[quiquaquo]

 

[quiquaquo]

 

[Doctor Carrot]

BBC lawn occupied. Hmmm....think I might pop down to this in a sec as it's literally five minutes away from me.

 

[seventh bullet]

Are you unable to grasp that insurgency doesn't need to win battles - that the nature of insurgency is such that merely to be insurgent is "victory" enough?
Seriously: Study up on the LTTE, on the Provisional IRA, th Shining Path, or FARC - basically on any insurgent minority/region. There's only one answer to insurgency, and it's the one answer neither the state of Israel, or any other (pseudo)-democratic state can use - liquidation.

You also need to 'win' the people you live among. PCP-SL 'success' depended on, among other things, the army not being involved to the extent it did from 1990s. Their own actions in the areas they controlled eventually lost them rural support, with many turning against them in government-supported/exploited and locally-organised self-defence groups in rural communities.

People grew sick of them (or sick of fearing them, and being caught up in government attempts to crush them, which were also counterproductive in feeding the insurgency for a time). And those who were to varying degrees sympathetic to their cause knew that their small 'columns' of militants stood little chance of retaining the territory under their control when Lima upped its game. To those who knew Maoist doctrine (which they deviated from) talk of 'strategic equilibrium' being reached by the early 1990s was fanciful.

But enough of the derail on this important thread about GAZA.

 

[DrRingDing]

'thats how bad israel is behaving, theyre making Joey Barton the voice of reason'

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/25/joey-barton-twitter-rows-gaza_n_5619831.html

 

[nino_savatte]

According to Jewish Voice for Peace, the IDF is now banning journalists from entering Gaza.

They're cranking up the news management.

 

[quiquaquo]

'thats how bad israel is behaving, theyre making Joey Barton the voice of reason'

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/25/joey-barton-twitter-rows-gaza_n_5619831.html

Nice one Joey but save some energy for sorting out that scumbag John Terry good and proper this coming season please.

 

[Theisticle]

Wow!

His rhetoric sounds like that of the Neturei Karta, who you should not ally with:

http://972mag.com/anti-zionist-jews-are-no-friend-of-the-palestinian-national-struggle/61002/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

 

[frogwoman]

His rhetoric sounds like that of the Neturei Karta, who you should not ally with:

http://972mag.com/anti-zionist-jews-are-no-friend-of-the-palestinian-national-struggle/61002/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

yep. although I'm an anti-Zionist jew I'm not one of those theocratic nutters.

 

[quiquaquo]

Another three shot dead on the West Bank, one by a settler near Nablus according the Guardian latest.

 

[laptop]

His rhetoric sounds like that of the Neturei Karta, who you should not ally with:

http://972mag.com/anti-zionist-jews-are-no-friend-of-the-palestinian-national-struggle/61002/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

Eldad J. Levy doesn't put any actual arguments in that piece: just reiterates that Neturei Karta's position on Israel stems from their reading of Judaism.

Secular (and indeed others) Palestinians could well take issue with, for example, the position of women within Neturei Karta. But he doesn't mention that, or anything of substance: merely, dare I say it, kvetches a bit.

 

[scalyboy]

Just a thought (and apologies if this has already been covered above) - is it possible that there is a strategy behind the IDF's seemingly-indiscriminate killing of civilians in Gaza - to send a message to the Gazan people that Hamas cannot protect you?

 

[Idris2002]

Just a thought (and apologies if this has already been covered above) - is it possible that there is a strategy behind the IDF's seemingly-indiscriminate killing of civilians in Gaza - to send a message to the Gazan people that Hamas cannot protect you?

Maybe, but they're well used to suffering and not being protected at this point.

 

[butchersapron]

Just a thought (and apologies if this has already been covered above) - is it possible that there is a strategy behind the IDF's seemingly-indiscriminate killing of civilians in Gaza - to send a message to the Gazan people that Hamas cannot protect you?

The Israeli state wants hamas to be in charge in gaza - or at least to be able to stop anyone else being in effective power. The whole series of actions are designed to shore up local support for hamas, not split the population from hamas - whilst sending an overarching message of how far things can go.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I'm not sure you understand how military occupation works.
Yes, the state of Israel could do exactly that, no-one is saying they couldn't.
Being reasonably stategically-minded and tactically-inclined, though, they won't. A full-scale permanent occupation of Gaza would require using a significant part of their standing army and reserves to occupy and police Gaza - this would put massive pressure on the economy, as well as on their human military resources and on military materiel, pressure that can't be alleviated with some extra cash from the US, as they found out previously.
Israel will never again opt for full occupation. Instead they will continue to depend on locking people into a vast open prison and convincing some Palestinians to work as kapos for them, and occasionally invading in strength to destroy infrastructure and lives, then withdrawing.

I take your reasonable points but the fact remains that the rockets are not the reason that Israel isn't militarily occupying all Palestinian land.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Ah, that must be why Islamic Jihad are also involved - so that they can legitimate HAMAS!





They do.

Not my most clarity-ridden post last night, but I think you have to think seriously about what the leaders of Hamas believe and what their motivations are. They don't see a way to end the occupation and therefore concern themselves mainly with consolidating political power within the Palestinian territories. That in my mind is why they fire rockets at Israel - to convince the Palestinians that they are trying to defend them from Israeli imperialism. This is my take on it anyway - you're free to disagree of course but if you are suggesting the rockets are fired because of a genuine belief that they will cause any serious problem for Israel then it seems to me that you are suggesting that Hamas is made up of people not able to comprehend available evidence to the contrary.

 

[frogwoman]

The rockets quite clearly do cause a problem for Israel though. It's nowhere near on the destruction of Gaza but the Israeli government has had a furious response from residents of places like Sderot who think they're not being protected enough. In addition a few of these rockets can now hit targets in Tel Aviv.

 

[SpackleFrog]

The rockets quite clearly do cause a problem for Israel though. It's nowhere near on the destruction of Gaza but the Israeli government has had a furious response from residents of places like Sderot who think they're not being protected enough. In addition a few of these rockets can now hit targets in Tel Aviv.

Is that success? Increasing complaints?

I'm sceptical about Tel Aviv but maybe you know more than me?

 

[butchersapron]

The rockets quite clearly do cause a problem for Israel though. It's nowhere near on the destruction of Gaza but the Israeli government has had a furious response from residents of places like Sderot who think they're not being protected enough. In addition a few of these rockets can now hit targets in Tel Aviv.

And the response to this anger - oh, we'll have to be pushed by popular anger into what we wanted to do anyway.

 

[frogwoman]

Is that success? Increasing complaints?

I'm sceptical about Tel Aviv but maybe you know more than me?

They hit the airport or not so far from the airport in tel aviv. There are a few rockets Hamas allegedly has which are able to hit targets in the west bank. And I read a report about "Hamas drones" (although this might be wishful thinking) shot down over southern Israel on a Palestinian website. None of this is in terms of firepower or numbers anywhere near the numbers that Israel has but I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that Hamas rockets are having no effect on Israel whatsoever. Then there's the psychological boost which they must give the Palestinians which is not to be exaggerated.

 

[SpackleFrog]

They hit the airport or not so far from the airport in tel aviv. There are a few rockets Hamas allegedly has which are able to hit targets in the west bank. And I read a report about "Hamas drones" (although this might be wishful thinking) shot down over southern Israel on a Palestinian website. None of this is in terms of firepower or numbers anywhere near the numbers that Israel has but I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that Hamas rockets are having no effect on Israel whatsoever. Then there's the psychological boost which they must give the Palestinians which is not to be exaggerated.

The psychological boost whereby Palestinians think "Hey, Hamas are trying to protect us"?

 

[frogwoman]

Is that success? Increasing complaints?

I'm sceptical about Tel Aviv but maybe you know more than me?

Yes it is because the Netanyahu's government is trying to act as though it is hard line, not being able to protect its citizens from the rockets (however pathetic) is going to alienate the people that Netanyahu is trying to shore up as his support base and end up giving support both to the left and the even more extreme right.

 

[frogwoman]

The psychological boost whereby Palestinians think "Hey, Hamas are trying to protect us"?

It's not just Hamas though is it? A lot of these rockets are being fired by random people on their own.

I would say that if I was a Palestinian living in Gaza hearing about rockets in Israel would give me a psychological boost yes.

 

[smmudge]

I reckon the IDF, who claim to have some of the best, most precise military equipment in the world, and also claim that their mission is to stop rockets being fired, have now managed to damage or destroy more buildings in Gaza than there have actually been rockets fired from Gaza in the last 5 years at least.

 

[SpackleFrog]

It's not just Hamas though is it? A lot of these rockets are being fired by random people on their own.

I would say that if I was a Palestinian living in Gaza hearing about rockets in Israel would give me a psychological boost yes.

Exactly. They don't even fire the rockets. They just procure/manufacture them.