Gaza under attack yet again.
- Thread starter Mr.Bishie
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I always also wonder about collective trauma, in that (I think I'm right) many people who live in Israel had family who died in Nazi Germany. But that's not something I know much about, and it's obviously not an excuse. But if there (hopefully) is a peace agreement, after the peace there will also probably be some reflection and maybe that is something that people will talk about.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
I don't like how this conflict is making me veer towards a serious dislike of Israelis. I know that sounds bad, I know how easily for some that can tip over into a dislike of Jews and I know how much the Israeli establishment wants me to tip over into disliking Jews. I also know a great many in Israel are against the occupation on the whole, including Israelis I personally know. But fuck it just makes me angry. Not only the actual facts of it but its the complete and utter divorce from reality by Israel's apologists. It's not only that it's the smugness that goes along with it and the completely flimsy and flat out false reasons to justify it.
'Well, 200,000 have died in Syria and I didn't hear you complaining' - Not the same thing. That's a civil war and I think it's horrendous. What's the difference? This has been going on for over 40 years, Israel's acting illegally on all counts, there's a peace deal on the table for 30 years that Israel reject in favour of expansion, they're violently oppressing the people they're occupying and the state I live in backs them so it's indirectly being done in my name and so on
'Well, Palestinians only existed since last century so they're not entitled to the land' - And? Even if that was true the people there were either living there or are descendants of people living there when Israel booted them out.
I know I've brought this up a bit before, although the first few sentences are a new feeling for me, but just GAAAH! It seems having the actual facts of the situation aren't enough. Even when you point it out bold as brass to people they still can't or won't see it! The combination of reading too many apologists comments and listening to that cunt on channel 4 news earlier today has tipped me over the edge tonight
'Well, 200,000 have died in Syria and I didn't hear you complaining' - Not the same thing. That's a civil war and I think it's horrendous. What's the difference? This has been going on for over 40 years, Israel's acting illegally on all counts, there's a peace deal on the table for 30 years that Israel reject in favour of expansion, they're violently oppressing the people they're occupying and the state I live in backs them so it's indirectly being done in my name and so on
'Well, Palestinians only existed since last century so they're not entitled to the land' - And? Even if that was true the people there were either living there or are descendants of people living there when Israel booted them out.
I know I've brought this up a bit before, although the first few sentences are a new feeling for me, but just GAAAH! It seems having the actual facts of the situation aren't enough. Even when you point it out bold as brass to people they still can't or won't see it! The combination of reading too many apologists comments and listening to that cunt on channel 4 news earlier today has tipped me over the edge tonight
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
If Israel wanted to march in and occupy everything they could. The rockets wouldn't stop that.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
The psychological consequences? Is that a victory for Palestine or does it help Israel maintain a sense of fear within its population?
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
I think Hezbollah in Lebanon might have something to say about that. Remember it didn't go so well for the IDF in Lebanon when they attacked it in 2006.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Well, I admire your hopes and aspirations but it scares me quite a lot that you can Palestine cannot lose while having literally no idea of how a one or two state solution can be realised.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
We're not talking about Lebanon, we're talking about Gaza. Has there been a military response from Lebanon about what is happening now? No, and there won't be.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Well see how long it goes on for eh?
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Did anyone else think 'aww poor widdle benny wenny isiwaeli woo woo' watching that?
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Sure but it ain't coming. The Arab countries aren't going to save the Palestinians. Even the most optimistic soul must see that.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Hell, I'll just say it: the rockets serve no purpose except to legitimise the position of Hamas as leaders of the resistance. Even given the scarcity of resources at their disposal, if they wanted to actively resist they could.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Indeed but leaving that aside it all depends on what America says. Israel only pulled out of Gaza because the godfather told them to. Just pay attention to the language. All the western powers have said 'we're concerned with the rise in civilian deaths, efforts must be made for a ceasefire but Israel has a right to defend itself' which means keep doing what ever the fuck you want in Gaza. I also find it very telling that it's all Hamas's fault that no cease fire has been reached and yet barely a whimper is mentioned that Israel won't lift the blockade, instead it's 'stop firing rockets and then we'll talk about lifting the blockade' precisely what the terms of the previous cease fire was and the one before that. Why the fuck would Hamas agree to that? Why should they? Sorry yes I know I'm going off the wider point you're discussing and I'm going off on a rant but fuck it pisses me off!
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
There is significant direct resistance to the Israeli military.Didn't 2 nearby countries (Maybe Lebanon and ?) fire directly on Israel in 2008 or 2009?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Indeed but leaving that aside it all depends on what America says. Israel only pulled out of Gaza because the godfather told them to. Just pay attention to the language. All the western powers have said 'we're concerned with the rise in civilian deaths, efforts must be made for a ceasefire but Israel has a right to defend itself' which means keep doing what ever the fuck you want in Gaza. I also find it very telling that it's all Hamas's fault that no cease fire has been reached and yet barely a whimper is mentioned that Israel won't lift the blockade, instead it's 'stop firing rockets and then we'll talk about lifting the blockade' precisely what the terms of the previous cease fire was and the one before that. Why the fuck would Hamas agree to that? Why should they? Sorry yes I know I'm going off the wider point you're discussing and I'm going off on a rant but fuck it pisses me off!
TBH there is always going to be a difference between what the US government comes out with publically and what it actually does.
It is perhaps significant that the recent 5+1 talks - which is still the biggest stick they have to hit Bibi with - over the Iranian nuclear programme were extended for a four month period recently, rather than stopped and the sanctions reimposed as the Israelis and most of Congress wanted. It also wouldnt be that surprising to find out later on that they are negotiating directly with Hamas, which would be a damn sight more reasonable than coming up with a ceasefire proposal that doesnt involve them (as Blair, Sisi and the rest tried to do).
The Iranian Jewish population is numerous, well protected and has guaranteed parliamentary representation and protection. Personally I have met various Iranian Jews in Europe in the past who were very much Iranian in every way. Largest Jewish community by far in the Middle East outside Israel.
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israels-jewish-problem-tehran/7089
I don't like how this conflict is making me veer towards a serious dislike of Israelis. I know that sounds bad, I know how easily for some that can tip over into a dislike of Jews and I know how much the Israeli establishment wants me to tip over into disliking Jews. I also know a great many in Israel are against the occupation on the whole, including Israelis I personally know. But fuck it just makes me angry. Not only the actual facts of it but its the complete and utter divorce from reality by Israel's apologists. It's not only that it's the smugness that goes along with it and the completely flimsy and flat out false reasons to justify it.
'Well, 200,000 have died in Syria and I didn't hear you complaining' - Not the same thing. That's a civil war and I think it's horrendous. What's the difference? This has been going on for over 40 years, Israel's acting illegally on all counts, there's a peace deal on the table for 30 years that Israel reject in favour of expansion, they're violently oppressing the people they're occupying and the state I live in backs them so it's indirectly being done in my name and so on
'Well, Palestinians only existed since last century so they're not entitled to the land' - And? Even if that was true the people there were either living there or are descendants of people living there when Israel booted them out.
I know I've brought this up a bit before, although the first few sentences are a new feeling for me, but just GAAAH! It seems having the actual facts of the situation aren't enough. Even when you point it out bold as brass to people they still can't or won't see it! The combination of reading too many apologists comments and listening to that cunt on channel 4 news earlier today has tipped me over the edge tonight
If it's any comfort I had numerous Arab-Jewish relatives by marriage who despised Israel and the racism they endured when visiting there. They couldn't speak Hebrew and even those who ended up there speaking it had an accent that identified them immediately. It shouldn't be forgotten that Arab-Jews pronounce Hebrew differently from what what one normally hears from those on TV of obviously European origin such as Netanyahu and such. Although now these Jews from Arab countries are some of the most right wing they shouldn't forget a recent past that failed to represent them in the Knesset and confined them to the performing arts. One of the saddest consequences is the slow death of their culture and language in the Zionist entity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Arabic_languages
Ofra Haza for all her political faults was a good example.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=y...bd5YBY&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1621&bih=862
sptme
我打酱油的
Telling civilians to leave their homes and take shelter in schools, then bombing the schools. That's a cunts trick, that is. Makes my stomach turn.
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-07-24/itv-news-witnesses-aftermath-of-un-school-attack-in-gaza/
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-07-24/itv-news-witnesses-aftermath-of-un-school-attack-in-gaza/
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Somewhere else I saw this image posted:
I like the image. I think it highlights what has been going on rather well.
Anyhow in response, someone else posted the following image saying word to the effect of - the arabs have so much, why should Israel not have this tiny bit!
Just wondering what people on here think about that?
I like the image. I think it highlights what has been going on rather well.
Anyhow in response, someone else posted the following image saying word to the effect of - the arabs have so much, why should Israel not have this tiny bit!
Just wondering what people on here think about that?
The second one is idiocy and Somalia is no more Arab than Bosnia.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
It's an old image but it's still relevant and highlights exactly what land's been occupied. If anything it's worse now.
My knowledge is still quite limited on the conflict. Was the war of independence what lead to the borders of 1967? Why isn't the land taken then not considered occupied also or is it? Also, what's the the little white bit of land on the edge of the Gaza strip in the 2000 image? I've only ever seen that represented on this map shown here.
It's that whole 'Arabs are one homogeneous mass of filth' argument isn't it? 'Those Arabs are greedy, war mongers and yada yada so why do they want more?' You can counter it and say Palestinians are only one Arabic culture, just as Syrians are another Arabic culture. You can also say you're not against an Israeli state you just don't like it's nationalistic tendencies, land grabbing, murderous rampages and so on. It's a perfectly reasonable argument to make I think and I think it's one that should be made if you take the international law stance. Getting people who post maps like this to actually listen and look at the facts is an entirely different matter though.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Tell them that an egalitarian one state solution would solve all these bullshit geopolitical problems.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Just looked at the website that produced that map. I wonder what the chances are of them actually being as independent as they say they are?
It's bizarre, I've almost become a conspiraloon regarding anyone blindly defending Israel because I, unless it's obvious they're not, just automatically think hasbara is behind it. Particularly when I read this (Story from last year but relevant).
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
The #thirdintifada is seeing a bit of activity. Apparently there's been clashes in Jerusalem.
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Exactly, it's the only solution and one that would bring untold benefits to all concerned if they put their fucking minds to it. Al-Andalus was the way to go, translate that into the 21st century and the possibilities are endless for all.
It's probably eid this Monday. Instead of celebrating, they will be mourning.
http://m.aljazeera.com/story/2014724213831750431
Israel kills Palestinian in West Bank clashes
Israeli police shoot dead man and injure at least 55 others in Qalandia during massive protests in occupied West Bank.
Israeli police have shot dead a Palestinian man during a massive protest in the occupied West Bank, just north of Jerusalem, in support of those under siege in Gaza.
http://m.aljazeera.com/story/2014724213831750431
Israel kills Palestinian in West Bank clashes
Israeli police shoot dead man and injure at least 55 others in Qalandia during massive protests in occupied West Bank.
Israeli police have shot dead a Palestinian man during a massive protest in the occupied West Bank, just north of Jerusalem, in support of those under siege in Gaza.
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