Is it Welsh?
Gaza under attack yet again.
- Thread starter Mr.Bishie
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Is it Welsh?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Poor phil. He must be behind on a deadline. That always brings out his passive-aggressive tendencies. 
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Poor phil. He must be behind on a deadline. That always brings out his passive-aggressive tendencies.
I eschew such tendencies.
He himself obviously doesn't know the meaning of eschewing.Poor phil. He must be behind on a deadline. That always brings out his passive-aggressive tendencies.
EDITED to add, he has looked it up at last. (His post crossed my original)
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
hipipol
Peckham Wry
Colonel blah blah has just been on the radio postulating exactly that pile of tosh
Despite the fact that he has been able to spout tons of similar idiocies of the last weeks, even he seemed to doubt the line he was being asked to peddle
One strike killing 15 and injuring approx 200 others is NOT one of Hamas firework propaganda missiles
Thats proper ordnance
Only Israel has such weapons
Surely the killing of children in a UN school must be even the most hardline think again?
Despite the fact that he has been able to spout tons of similar idiocies of the last weeks, even he seemed to doubt the line he was being asked to peddle
One strike killing 15 and injuring approx 200 others is NOT one of Hamas firework propaganda missiles
Thats proper ordnance
Only Israel has such weapons
Surely the killing of children in a UN school must be even the most hardline think again?
weltweit
Well-Known Member
No, it's alright, even Palestinian children are terrorists, a prominent Israeli said so only last week!
elbows
Well-Known Member
Other parts of the story include the length of time this stuff has been going on, which among other things leads to a large historical mass of stuff that can quickly be dusted down and reused or reactivated when Israel goes on the offensive. i.e. slogans, protest material, activist networks here and activists on the ground. And indeed all of this stuff must also have altered the way that Palestinian groups react to events, they are used to factoring the international component into their thinking.
I'd be very wary of directly comparing this stuff to the international and British medias reaction to Kosovo, Syria and Gaddafi because it was clearly in the interests of our government to focus on and condemn a side in those conflicts because they were not our establishments special friends or were at least still seen as a pain in the ass unreliable partner (e.g. Gaddafi in the final 'liberalisation' phase of his rule). And great swathes of our media clearly keep themselves broadly in tune with the aims and propaganda of our state most of the time.
Its easy to come up with at least three reasons why the BBC coverage of atrocities against Palestinians took a turn for the worse in the last decade (not saying it was totally fair and balanced before then). The large slap the BBC received in the aftermark of the Iraq war, when action was taken to kick some segments of the establishment that wandered too far off message in the buildup to that war. Hamas coming to power and the way the west decided to approach that in propaganda and practical terms. And some kind of narrowing of the mainstream bounds of 'acceptable' criticism towards Israel that may have taken place. This latter point I would like to understand better, since I am not really clear on how much things have narrowed on this front compared to 20 years ago (my memory could be playing tricks) or the exact reasons why this has happened.
So anyways rather than compare to Kosovo etc, examples I'd pick would be Apartheid in South Africa during the period our state was on the wrong side, and Bahrain. May be harder to compare to Bahrain since that ones not been going on for a comparable length of time as far as open, violent state repression that the people of the rest of the world actually notice and get to hear about on the news is concerned. But the way our states propaganda dealt with Bahrain could be compared to the Hamas angle in that the oppressed masses were to an extent made double-plus-irrelevant by saying 'ooh they are Shia, Iran is their friend, the Iranian regime is bad so we will back the other side and shed few tears'.
hipipol
Peckham Wry
The Israeli military said that 13 rockets had been fired out of Gaza Thursday and hit Israeli territory and seven additional rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome system.
• The latest figures from the Palestinian health ministry said 771 people had died in Gaza and 4,750 had been injured, with at least 76 killed today. More than 140,000 Gazans are displaced, according to the UN.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...alestinian-death-toll-passes-700-live-updates
20 peashooter rockets, no injuries v 76 dead, hundreds wounded
• The latest figures from the Palestinian health ministry said 771 people had died in Gaza and 4,750 had been injured, with at least 76 killed today. More than 140,000 Gazans are displaced, according to the UN.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...alestinian-death-toll-passes-700-live-updates
20 peashooter rockets, no injuries v 76 dead, hundreds wounded
elbows
Well-Known Member
I suspect they, and specific hardline factions within Israeli politics especially, were not very happy with the way the last offensive against Gaza ended either. The combination of the MB regime in some power in Egypt at the time, a very slightly less accommodating attitude from the US government than Israel has often been used to, along with factors relating to that particular moment in domestic politics, probably left some Israeli hardliners with the feeling of being forced to climb down into a frustratingly premature finish. At a minimum it was certainly painted as a failure of these hardliners to have it all their own way.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Opinions on that will vary depending on how much a person believes changes to the 'tone' of propaganda and reporting can affect outcomes in conflicts.
Bloody events, caused by 'our side' or 'our allies' certainly do change the tone. I remember during the 90/91 Iraq war, that at some point 'our side' managed to bomb a shelter full of civilians, and it pretty much instantly changed the mood and appetite. At a minimum this meant more solemn news bulletins and more tempered speech from politicians, and the sudden absence of a particularly vulgar form of war cheerleading and military hardware porn. Whether this actually leads to a different timetable for ending an offensive, or other changes in tactics or strategy, is open to question. Sometimes, maybe, to an extent.
I suppose we could assume that at times a buildup of particular civilian horror-stories has narrowed Israels window of opportunity to continue an offensive. The amount of pressure they come under from quarters such as the allies they need & care about does actually matter, even if they are given a lot of slack to be bloody. There are limits, somewhere, but sadly when it comes to this conflict, they are often far beyond what we'd hope for and then some again.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Hardliners stubbornly resist the 'events that change the tone' I just mentioned, and may even attempt to overcompensate by ratcheting up the bloody rhetoric and the attempts at dehumanisation. What they are not immune from is the pressure from various quarters that matter, even when they often try to do an impression of a genuinely isolated 'rogue state' that really doesn't care what anyone thinks of it. Since we are not normally privy to the private detail of such special relationships, and press reports of such matters can often be part of the game itself, such stuff is open to misinterpretation and guesswork. That makes it hard to judge exactly when Israel has been forced to restrain itself and stop the bloodshed earlier than they would have liked.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Which just shows how utterly inept those factions of Israeli politics are; that they have got themselves into a position where they either act rationally and look weak, or get to commit ethnic cleansing (at best) or genocide (at worse), all because of a few rockets fired from a prison camp that they are responsible for in the first place. This ineptness is precisely why noone - beyond the odd peace envoy, of course - is willing to help them bomb Iran over its nuclear programme.
savoloysam
Pigman's pigman's ha ha charade you are..
The only outcome of Israel's actions at the moment is going to be a rise in antisemitism. People's patience is wearing thin it seems.
Although there seems to be a worrying amount of support for the IDF. Their facebook page has over a million likes and is full of rabid Islamic hatred.
This is all very saddening to say the least
Although there seems to be a worrying amount of support for the IDF. Their facebook page has over a million likes and is full of rabid Islamic hatred.
This is all very saddening to say the least
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
http://www.itv.com/news/2014-07-24/itv-news-witnesses-aftermath-of-un-school-attack-in-gaza/
Fucking scum, I'm in tears here 
Fucking scum, I'm in tears here
At the end of the day Ayatollah Ali Khamenei sounds reasonable to me: http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/uk-palestinians-israel-iran-idINKBN0FS2HT20140723
Interesting blog concerning the military strategy of Hamas and the possibility of second and even third fronts: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_...wwhaaretzcomnewsdiplomacy-defense1606735.html
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
At the march in London last Saturday, a lot of people were wearing bits of paper with the names and ages of people who'd been killed, I think picked to match their gender and age though not sure.
I've been thinking about this and it's interesting. Obviously it's a good letter, positive, whatever. But I think the three or so weeks (?) since hostilities began, people forget that originally it began nominally because of three kidnapped and murdered Israeli teenagers. The rest of the world has forgotten that, Israelis almost certainly less so. And that letter very clearly explains the situation in Gaza and gives some context to that action. Gaza drops out of the news but does the situation does not change even when there is not an attack by Israel.
I think there are also 3 things to consider in why Israel attack so strongly, committing what many see as war crimes. 1 is historical etc, Israel have been allowed to get away with a lot for a long while. The Israeli army have a culture which sees such an attack as acceptable and desirable. There are probably a lot of people (in the West?) who have made a lot of money arming Israel, and peace isn't necessarily in their interests. The other is maybe fear. The Israeli government and the Israeli people fear attacks, both terrorist and rocket from Palestinian territories, attacking maybe is a way to try and protect themselves even if it's quite inefficient and over the top. Also maybe there is an element in Israeli society which sees Gaza as rightfully Israel's land, and sees the end goal as taking Gaza.
Anyway. I think it's helpful to think about the different players and factors, as otherwise it just seems like Israel = bad, and that's not really an analysis that will get you too far.
Those are just some thoughts, I'd be interested to know what other people think.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
It is worth pointing out of course that those murdered kids were killed in the West Bank; if anyone in the region can be said to have a reasonable alibi for that crime then its the imprisoned residents of Gaza.
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
If, as is suggested, Israel was dismantled in a referendum, what would happen to all the Jews now living there? Off the top of my head I don't think historically there's been a great track record for Jews living in Arab Middle East states (e.g. under Saddam's Iraq), or Iran - but I'm not an expert by any means, can someone prove me wrong with some historical facts?
scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
Anyone else feeling frustrated, angry and helpless about the situation, you could do worse than to send a few quid to Medical Aid for Palestinians
teqniq
DisMembered
I already did, pretty much just after this all kicked off. When I tried posting a link to this charity in a comment piece on CIF it was removed twice. The second time I made it absolutely clear what it was. Still removed.
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scalyboy
They’re taking the piss now
I think you may be right about the fear aspect, and not only an immediate fear of rocket attacks - I wonder whether Israeli Jews themselves fear what would happen if, at some stage, by some means, the state of Israel was dismantled, and they became just Jews living in an Arab or Muslim state - that fear may mean they go along with the disproportionate military actions and effectivley war crimes of the IDF, for fear of the alternative? It's what I was trying to hint at in my post #1684. Just an idea.
elbows
Well-Known Member
In terms of practical, well thought out fears, Israel joining the nuclear weapons club turned down the volume on that fear considerably. But that may only have allowed fears the spare capacity to spend more time focussed elsewhere, e.g. much closer to home.
They don't want to honour previous deals, and they want to reserve the right to keep all their options open in terms of the Palestinian people and various territory. They do not wish to grant legitimacy to Palestine and its people, or establish precedents that are unfavourable to Israel. And there are numerous interests throughout systems, people and layers of power, as always in the world, in maintaining the status quo for as long as possible.
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