Gaza under attack yet again.

[DrRingDing]

Has anyone got a link for the guardian not running the gaza appeal?

 

[SpookyFrank]

No Arabs are on the opposing side of Palestinian freedom.

What about the Egyptians who are keeping the Rafah border crossing closed?

 

[MellySingsDoom]

What about the Egyptians who are keeping the Rafah border crossing closed?

And the rulers of Jordan, and of many other Arab and Gulf States?

 

[DrRingDing]

....all in the pocket of the US/Israel

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

What the Egyptians who are keeping the Rafah border crossing closed?

The Egyptian masses are the most anti-Israeli people. Obviously the Sisi dictatorship is even more pro-Zionist than Mubarak. It is even more under control by imperialist Zionist forces.

 

[coley]

why is it right?

Now I know my limits and if I am picking this up wrong I am willing to be persuaded otherwise,but when you have heavyweights like Carl levin defending the Israeli/Zionist position, would you not,if you were a Gazan,would you not feel just a little bit better to have a few prominent Jews denouncing the Israeli/Zionist actions?
It's fine for you,me and perhaps millions of others to be disgusted by their actions, but let's be honest will Israel take a blind bit of notice?
However if high profile American Jews were to make their disgust public then I suspect that would be a whole different kettle of fish.
I know it's complicated and mebbes I don't have sufficient knowledge of facts, but as a nominal catholic ( non believing,non practising)I would still be off me tits if the Vatican was doing to Rome what Israel is doing to Gaza.

 

[butchersapron]

....all in the pocket of the US/Israel

They can't be because no Arab fails to support the palestinians. None. Not a one.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I know it's complicated and mebbes I don't have sufficient knowledge of facts, but as a nominal catholic ( non believing,non practising)I would still be off me tits if the Vatican was doing to Rome what Israel is doing to Gaza.

So you spend your days waving placards complaining about institutional child abuse then I take it?

 

[DrRingDing]

They can't be because no Arab fails to support the palestinians. None. Not a one.

Shouldn't you be concerned with what's happening in your backyard. The shame.

 

[coley]

So you spend your days waving placards complaining about institutional child abuse then I take it?

No, came to the conclusion, Belfast early seventies, all organised religion is Shyte, and the hierarchies of said religions should be sent for 're-education''

 

[Anudder Oik]

So you spend your days waving placards complaining about institutional child abuse then I take it?

You need to put your question in context. If Coley were a prominent catholic whom the media would dote on every word, would he use that influence to denounce the abuses?

Having said that, I get what people are saying here about it being offensive to conflate jewish people around the world with Israel, but that's what happens in many cases, people conflate religious groups or national groups at the drop of a hat, and if zionism tries to confirm that belief, then how are people to know otherwise?

I live in Spain, and have, on a couple of occasions had shit directed at me about Gibraltar. Should I have an opinion about the rock? no, it's nothing to do with me, but if they began committing genaside there, I would feel more compelled to speak up in order to dissasociate myself from it as they fly the same flag which people could associate with me, and even if I tried to ignore it, sooner or later it would catch up with me for the simple fact of being british.

 

[DotCommunist]

You need to put your question in context. If Coley were a prominent catholic whom the media would dote on every word, would he use that influence to denounce the abuses?

Having said that, I get what people are saying here about it being offensive to conflate jewish people around the world with Israel, but that's what happens in many cases, people conflate religious groups or national groups at the drop of a hat, and if zionism tries to confirm that belief, then how are people to know otherwise?

I live in Spain, and have, on a couple of occasions had shit directed at me about Gibraltar. Should I have an opinion about the rock? no, it's nothing to do with me, but if they began committing genaside there, I would feel more compelled to speak up in order to dissasociate myself from it as they fly the same flag which people could associate with me, and even if I tried to ignore it, sooner or later it would catch up with me for the simple fact of being british.

they should educate themselves. They can be informed by m8s why thats wrong. And, and this is key, having the self appointed Voices of The Jews speak out against it merely concretes the idea that there is a one people of one voice.

 

[BigTom]

Now I know my limits and if I am picking this up wrong I am willing to be persuaded otherwise,but when you have heavyweights like Carl levin defending the Israeli/Zionist position, would you not,if you were a Gazan,would you not feel just a little bit better to have a few prominent Jews denouncing the Israeli/Zionist actions?
It's fine for you,me and perhaps millions of others to be disgusted by their actions, but let's be honest will Israel take a blind bit of notice?
However if high profile American Jews were to make their disgust public then I suspect that would be a whole different kettle of fish.
I know it's complicated and mebbes I don't have sufficient knowledge of facts, but as a nominal catholic ( non believing,non practising)I would still be off me tits if the Vatican was doing to Rome what Israel is doing to Gaza.

Jews who speak out are dismissed by Israel / hasbara as self hating Jews. They have no more influence than anyone else.

The people who have most influence outside Israel are the political leaders of the countries that supply arms and other support, the usa, uk, eu. Last time I looked they were mostly not Jewish.

 

[MellySingsDoom]

Jews who speak out are dismissed by Israel / hasbara as self hating Jews. They have no more influence than anyone else.

Could someone please print this out and wave it repeatedly in front of George Galloway's face? Thank you!

 

[butchersapron]

You need to put your question in context. If Coley were a prominent catholic whom the media would dote on every word, would he use that influence to denounce the abuses?

Having said that, I get what people are saying here about it being offensive to conflate jewish people around the world with Israel, but that's what happens in many cases, people conflate religious groups or national groups at the drop of a hat, and if zionism tries to confirm that belief, then how are people to know otherwise?

I live in Spain, and have, on a couple of occasions had shit directed at me about Gibraltar. Should I have an opinion about the rock? no, it's nothing to do with me, but if they began committing genaside there, I would feel more compelled to speak up in order to dissasociate myself from it as they fly the same flag which people could associate with me, and even if I tried to ignore it, sooner or later it would catch up with me for the simple fact of being british.

What if he were a prominent Spanish Catholic - would be be expected to talk on IRA policy and actions? That's the more accurate comparison here.

 

[butchersapron]

Shouldn't you be concerned with what's happening in your backyard. The shame.

Depends who i am. That it doesn't happen beyond rhetoric whilst taking actions that work against it shows a) Ibn Khaldoun is talking out of his hole and b) that power (possession and pursuit of it) tends to disrupt and undermine glib little analysis like "No Arabs are on the opposing side of Palestinian freedom." and necessitate a deeper less naive look at things. How would such naivety deal with black september and the monarchys actions ever since for example?

 

[existentialist]

I've highlighted what BigTom says here, as for the section of the demo I was in in London, I did not hear one single piece of anti-Semitic chanting/rhetoric (or see anti-Semitic placards etc) at all. tbh I was wondering if I would encounter this at all, so was somewhat relieved when - very quickly - it became apparent that the protests were about the actions of the Israeli state, and of Zionism being a secular political ideaology, which was NOT used as a screen for people to air their anti-Semitic views.

I really do believe that a huge part of the perception around this "confusion" between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism isn't just advertised by Israel (via slime like Regev), but is quite possibly actively created. We're in a strange situation where it probably suits the Zionist agenda quite nicely to have people hating Jews, and I really wouldn't put it past some of them to encourage that kind of attitude, so they can say "See? Anyone who opposes us is really doing it because They Hate Jews"

 

[J Ed]

In response to the (I suspect wilful) ignorance from some in this thread

http://ijsn.net/gaza/survivors_and_descendents-letter/

UPDATE: Almost 250 Jewish Survivors and Descendents of Survivors of Nazi Genocide Condemn the Massacre of Palestinians

..Jewish survivors and descendents of survivors of Nazi genocide unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza

As Jewish survivors and descendents of survivors of the Nazi genocide we unequivocally condemn the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza and the ongoing occupation and colonization of historic Palestine. We further condemn the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation. Genocide begins with the silence of the world.

We are alarmed by the extreme, racist dehumanization of Palestinians in Israeli society, which has reached a fever-pitch. In Israel, politicians and pundits in The Times of Israel and The Jerusalem Post have called openly for genocide of Palestinians and right-wing Israelis are adopting Neo-Nazi insignia.

Furthermore, we are disgusted and outraged by Elie Wiesel’s abuse of our history in these pages to promote blatant falsehoods used to justify the unjustifiable: Israel’s wholesale effort to destroy Gaza and the murder of nearly 2,000 Palestinians, including many hundreds of children. Nothing can justify bombing UN shelters, homes, hospitals and universities. Nothing can justify depriving people of electricity and water.

We must raise our collective voices and use our collective power to bring about an end to all forms of racism, including the ongoing genocide of Palestinian people. We call for an immediate end to the siege against and blockade of Gaza. We call for the full economic, cultural and academic boycott of Israel. “Never again” must mean NEVER AGAIN FOR ANYONE!

Signed,

Survivors

Hajo Meyer, survivor of Auschwitz, The Netherlands.
Henri Wajnblum, survivor and son of a victim of Auschwitz from Lodz, Poland. Lives in Belgium.
Renate Bridenthal, child refugee from Hitler, granddaughter of Auschwitz victim, United States.
Marianka Ehrlich Ross, survivor of Nazi ethnic cleansing in Vienna, Austria. Now lives in United States.
Irena Klepfisz, child survivor from the Warsaw Ghetto, Poland. Now lives in United States.
Karen Pomer, granddaughter of member of Dutch resistance and survivor of Bergen Belsen. Now lives in the United States.
Hedy Epstein, her parents & other family members were deported to Camp de Gurs & subsequently all perished in Auschwitz. Now lives in United States.
Lillian Rosengarten, survivor of the Nazi Holocaust, United States.
Suzanne Weiss, survived in hiding in France, and daughter of a mother who was murdered in Auschwitz. Now lives in Canada.
H. Richard Leuchtag, survivor, United States.
Ervin Somogyi, survivor and son of survivors, United States.
Ilse Hadda, survivor on Kindertransport to England. Now lives in United States.
Jacques Glaser, survivor, France.
Norbert Hirschhorn, refugee of Nazi genocide and grandson of three grandparents who died in the Shoah, London.
Eva Naylor, surivor, New Zealand.
Suzanne Ross, child refugee from Nazi occupation in Belgium, two thirds of family perished in the Lodz Ghetto, in Auschwitz, and other Camps, United States.
Bernard Swierszcz, Polish survivor, lost relatives in Majdanek concentration camp. Now lives in the United States.
Joseph Klinkov, hidden child in Poland, still lives in Poland.
Nicole Milner, survivor from Belgium. Now lives in United States.
Hedi Saraf, child survivor and daughter of survivor of Dachau, United States.
Michael Rice, child survivor and son and grandson of survivor, aunt died in Auschwitz and cousin in concentration camp, ALL 14 remaining Jewish children in my Dutch boarding school were murdered in concentration camps, United States.
Barbara Roose, survivor from Germany, half-sister killed in Auschwitz, United States.
Sonia Herzbrun, survivor of Nazi genocide, France.
Ivan Huber, survivor with my parents, but 3 of 4 grandparents murdered, United States.
Altman Janina, survivor of Janowski concentration camp, Lvov. Lives in Israel.
Leibu Strul Zalman, survivor from Vaslui Romania. Lives in Jerusalem, Palestine.
Miriam Almeleh, survivor, United States.
George Bartenieff, child survivor from Germany and son of survivors, United States.
Margarete Liebstaedter, survivor, hidden by Christian people in Holland. Lives in Belgium.
Edith Bell, survivor of Westerbork, Theresienstadt, Auschwitz and Kurzbach. Lives in United States.
Janine Euvrard, survivor, France.
Harry Halbreich, survivor, German.
Ruth Kupferschmidt, survivor, spent five years hiding, The Netherlands.

...

 

[likesfish]

They can't be because no Arab fails to support the palestinians. None. Not a one.

Much like the whole of south america supports argentinas claim on the falklands*



* as long as it doesnt require them to do anything more than talk.
If the arabs states were serious gaza could be full of man portable surface to air missiles and guided anti tank weapons which would make the idf shit a brick.

 

[stowpirate]

The killing of more than 1,000 protesters last year in Egypt probably amounted to crimes against humanity, a report has found.

So the country hosting peace talks has recently also been involved in "crimes against humanity". The current president Abdel Fattah al Sisi was head of the military at the time of these killings. He is also under investigation as was probably heavily involved even to the point that he may have given the orders to open fire?

http://news.sky.com/story/1317230/egypt-killings-planned-at-highest-levels

Anyway peace talks in Egypt would appear to be meaningless as they also have no moral compass?

 

[TomUS]

Anyway peace talks in Egypt would appear to be meaningless as they also have no moral compass?

Don't think it matters where they take place but that they take place. Although zero chance anything meaningful will result sense Israel will insist on maintaining the blockade.

 

[stowpirate]

Don't think it matters where they take place but that they take place. Although zero chance anything meaningful will result sense Israel will insist on maintaining the blockade.

Considering how many innocent people have died. Maybe it should be mandatory that all peace talks similar to this, at some stage in negotiation process are moved to the ICC in the Hague, Netherlands.

 

[ViolentPanda]

More decent jewish people need to stand up and be counted to put things right or are zionists the only voice of the jews nowadays.

To paraphrase some old book or other, "I am not my brother's keeper". You make a connection between "decent Jews", the state of Israel and Zionism, as if they go together like peaches and cream. Here's some news: Some of us have been anti-Zionist for decades, way before the term "anti-Zionist" became common coinage, because we don't agree with the fairly obvious contradictions contained within the state of Israel's foundation as a Jewish state, or with the things that the state of Israel does in our name, and we've been quite vociferous about that.
We don't need some gobshite on the internet telling us what to do, especially some gobshite who doesn't "get" just how primed the media is to set aside our views, but not those of the pro-Zionists.

 

[J Ed]

This is bad, very poor response from PSC too in assigning collective guilt to Jews.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/11398567.display/

Tensions in the Middle East have threatened to spill over here after graffiti supporting Gaza was sprayed onto a synagogue.

Police were called after the words ‘Free Gaza’ were found sprayed in black onto the door of the Hove Hebrew Congregation in Hove.

...

A spokesman for the Brighton and Hove Palestine Solidarity campaign said: “The real issue here is that there needs to be a political solution to the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.

“We would like the members of the Brighton Jewish community who do not agree with Israel’s policies to stand up – as 150 in Brooklyn did the other day, and many others have done - to show that there is not a divide between Jews and non-Jews.”

 

[ViolentPanda]

Make two of us then, he is quite rightly asking where are the prominent Jews in the west standing up to be counted in their condemnation of the israeli/Zionist actions in Gaza, is there something I am missing?

Nope, he asked why "decent Jews" weren't doing so, not "prominent" Jews. He's basically saying "why aren't all Jews who aren't Zionists, standing up and being counted?".
As for "prominent Jews" per se, most members of the British Jewish establishment won't say boo to a fucking goose, because they all have their tongues up Tel Aviv's arse. They've never reflected the views of British Jewry, only their own narrow interests, and frankly anudder oik's assumption that "decent Jews" aren't doing anything is insulting. Many of us do "do something", however much opprobrium it earns us.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Of course, but there's no reason why someone who is Jewish should or shouldn't speak out over someone who isn't Jewish, and saying that they should plays into the hands of Israel because it helps them to deflect criticism as anti-semitic and at the same time adds to the anti-semitism that does occur around pro-palestine demos, cos Jews and Israel, same thing innit.

And it pre-supposes that Jewish people don't and won't speak out, and by "Jewish people", I mean the rank and file members of British Jewry, not the hamster-fuckers at the Board of Deputies of British Jews and other "establishment" bodies (because all they care about is perpetuating their own "power" to claim to speak for British Jews). We do speak out, all the bloody time.

And when someone Jewish does speak out Israel denounces them as self-hating jews, further playing on the idea that Judaism and Israel are the same thing. Which feeds from/into conspiracy theory bollocks and anti-semitism about global jewish networks.

Do you think Judaism and Israel/Zionism are the same thing? If not, why do you think Jewish people have some kind of special responsibility to speak out about Israel?

It's not even a Judaism vs Israel/Zionism equation, because so many Jews aren't religious, and are culturally Jewish and maybe only as religious as a "christenings, marriages and funerals" Christian - in other words, Jewish doesn't necessarily mean "Judaist" - I'm certainly not a Judaist, but I am a Jew.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I asked the same question and still don't understand the answer.

That's because ibn Cowdung has his head so far up his own arse that he posts in what he fondly hopes is academic-speak.

 

[dylanredefined]

Considering how many innocent people have died. Maybe it should be mandatory that all peace talks similar to this, at some stage in negotiation process are moved to the ICC in the Hague, Netherlands.

How would that work? You can try and get vengeance for the dead or you can try and stop more being produced. If you negotiating peace and not imposing it on a side that has been beaten. It is going to be a messy compromise at best.

 

[Anudder Oik]

This is bad, very poor response from PSC too in assigning collective guilt to Jews.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/11398567.display/

I apologise if my probing on this question has made people feel uncomfortable. The posters who have calmly explained the situation ( about diaspora and zionist entity) have put things to rights for me and I understand the sensitivity of the question, however, not everyone out in the wider world will be aware of the facts that have been thrashed out here on this thread and may continue to have a different perception. Hence the bad news reported in the article above about an attack.

One poster said that the people who conflate will have to educate themsleves, but in general people aren't exposed to countercurrents to their way of thinking, and their perception, if left unchallenged, just chugs along the same way as always. it is not a crime to be ignorant about an issue.

I think the above article highlights a dilema and requires some more thought. You have on the one hand an anti-semitic attack on a synogogue and on the other a progressive political group recommending that the victims of the attack speak out in order to diffuse the situation. This option is dismissed here as pointing to collective guilt.

So, what is the alternative? To avoid conflation, the representatives of the mentioned synogogue must remain silent? But what in turn does this silence fuel amongst the people who have attacked the Synogogue?

The manifesto written by the holocaust survivors is extremely potent, and will, if read widely, contribute to diminishing anti-semitism stirred up by the Israeli state's actions.

 

[ska invita]

You have on the one hand an anti-semitic attack on a synogogue

Is writing Free Gaza on a synagogue anti-semitic? I think its simplistic to say so. Even the Rabbi in that link made the distinction