Fuck Gentrification - Join the Fuck Parade...Part 3!

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Because Tesco wouldn't stand for it and their would have been serious repercussions. So they weren't quite prepared to stand up for their principles to that extent ....

While this is barbed in tone there may well be something to it. However, there's another angle that could be more sympathetic to the mob (a word cited proudly in the YT upthread posted by someone calling themselves "Class War")

How do you target the real elite indiciduals causing these problems? Well one barely can. Many of them - the global billionaires buying up posh flats to leave empty as a moneybox for laundering etc. aint even in this country. Those in this country are behind rings of steel and private security.

Even if you smash the fuck out of a Tescos or Mcdonalds etc. the only people who are going to be traumatised in the midst of the actual event are the shop-floor working class.

There's something about the fairly low-grade nature of many targets that smacks of being pathetic in the original sense of the word.

Though it was always difficult to physically unseat and intimidate the mighty, it has probably never been harder.

 

[Citizen66]

who did what?

What you accused people of in your post.

 

[Citizen66]

bollocks.

We'd collapse if goods aren't bought and sold? No wonder you voted lib dem as your most radical act ever. You're fucking plastic.

 

[pocketscience]

What you accused people of in your post.

I' m not going to give you a list of names. You'll need to read the thread if you don't trust me.

 

[free spirit]

We'd collapse if goods aren't bought and sold? No wonder you voted lib dem as your most radical act ever. You're fucking plastic.

how would you as an electrician eat without trading your services with others who grow food?

that was one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen on here. I was trying to work out which was the last society that existed without trading, and can't think of one after the neanderthalls, who I remember reading a while back are now thought to have failed to survive the last ice age because they didn't trade sufficiently with other communities to allow them to adapt to survive the chance in their situation.

eta yeah voting lib dem was really my most radical act ever... clueless.

 

[xenon]

We'd collapse if goods aren't bought and sold? No wonder you voted lib dem as your most radical act ever. You're fucking plastic.

Don't paint yourself in a daft corner. Of course there would be trade in a postcapitalist society. Like that was before. Like There always has been.

 

[xenon]

Anyway serial cafe, daft target. But indicative and symptomatic of the wider anger.

 

[Citizen66]

How would I exist in a society that didn't have trade as its core mechanism? Is this the only model that can work then? How do things develop that don't involve trade?

 

[DotCommunist]

well there has to be some mechanism (or mechanisms) for the exchange of goods and services. No man is a swiss army knife of talents to build a train and plough a field and then run a market stall. Interesting to note that some of the tokens of exchange between early tribal socities signified less the value of the item but its currency as a signifier, not too far removed from how our currency today is utterly worthless in what it is but in what it symbolises and how it is backed is the thing. Neverheless, exchange and money as a technology are not capitalism and no amount of revisionism will change that

 

[Citizen66]

Don't box yourself in a daft corner. Of course there would be trade in a postcapitalist society. Like that was before. Like There always has been.

No, you don't box yourself in a corner.

 

[Citizen66]

well there has to be some mechanism (or mechanisms) for the exchange of goods and services. No man is a swiss army knife of talents to build a train and plough a field and then run a market stall.

This presupposes individualism. For some reason?

 

[xenon]

No, you don't box yourself in a corner.

I meant paint I blame the mention of cereal.

 

[xenon]

Debt the first 5000 years by David Greaber. Goes into pre capitalist trading, money, tokens of exchange quite a bit.

 

[DotCommunist]

This presupposes individualism. For some reason?

nah, even in an interdependant web there will always be need for tokens of exchange and trading. Nobody said it had to be capitalist in nature. But it is neccesary, even in the days of 'king for as far as I can send a warband to'. Currency itself is not capitalist. Well, it is now what with speculators and all, but as a basic means of facillitating exchange of needs its not

 

[DotCommunist]

dp

 

[DotCommunist]

the reason I mentioned 'no man is a swiss army knife' was to emphasize interdependence rather than presuppose individualism

 

[DotCommunist]

Debt the first 5000 years by David Greaber. Goes into pre capitalist trading, money, tokens of exchange quite a bit.

I read the simpletons version 'Money: an unauthorized biography' lol

 

[Citizen66]

Fair enough. But my point was less about what it would look like, and more countering the statement "a society couldn't function without trade". Stripped down, all a society does is produces stuff and distributes it. We could argue that the distribution is trade if we want and even the supply. But it normally means something different to that. And I don't necessarily think post capitalism equates to barter systems. There's loads of examples of this stuff happening alongside what we have now presently. Such as open source software. How does that come about without trade or bartering?

 

[DotCommunist]

Such as open source software. How does that come about without trade or bartering?

thats the intellectual capital of someone else given away for free by that person. The value there comes from his or her education to the abillity to craft the software, the capital to afford the machines on which they work and so on. No it isn't crops growing from the ground but its value has been added by a worker- if they the give such away free then god bless em one n all.

post capitalism equates to barter systems.

it doesn't have to. There would need to be markers though. Currency grew up as a way of placing markers on barter exchange over distance. S'all it is. The arcana of speculating and..dum dum dum....interest grew up with it.

 

[Citizen66]

thats the intellectual capital of someone else given away for free by that person. The value there comes from his or her education to the abillity to craft the software, the capital to afford the machines on which they work and so on. No it isn't crops growing from the ground but its value has been added by a worker- if they the give such away free then god bless em one n all.

But it's interesting that the former has chosen to do this. Rather than profit from it. Actually not even profit from it, not even be paid for it. Now, obviously they're in the financial position to be able to do that. And the latter couldn't because they're not in the financial position to do that. But what if they were? Isn't this what free communism is? We all produce knowing that at the end of it all we're not going to be evicted and we'll be well fed, have nice stuff etc? It's interesting that things such as Linux came about without profit in mind.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's interesting that things such as Linux came about without profit in mind.

once software exists it can be copied for nothing. I can't grow a turnip and then run off 50 copies of it in the space of five minutes. Theres different limitations on different produce. I recall being outraged at the very idea of market speculation on agriculture- thats people betting on a crop that doesn't fucking exist yet! madness. 'Futures' ffs. What happens when the wheat gets wheat aids or when the pig herd gets some horrible pig disease. Ent no payment on what the twats have been bartering in abstract over cos the herd is dead

 

[Citizen66]

once software exists it can be copied for nothing. I can't grow a turnip and then run off 50 copies of it in the space of five minutes. Theres different limitations on different produce. I recall being outraged at the very idea of market speculation on agriculture- thats people betting on a crop that doesn't fucking exist yet! madness. 'Futures' ffs. What happens when the wheat gets wheat aids or when the pig herd gets some horrible pig disease. Ent no payment on what the twats have been bartering in abstract over cos the herd is dead

Whilst I agree it isn't a good example of a direct comparison, you make out that this software has now been written and can be shared forever more. Rather than the reality of it being an ongoing project involving thousands of people that continues to grow and branch out into new things and ideas. The difference between this happening freely in software but not in the fields is that computers don't have an equivalent of the enclosures act, imo.

 

[xenon]

I read the simpletons version 'Money: an unauthorized biography' lol

Don't get me wrong, I can't claim to have a full understanding of it. But I did find it fascinating. I like those anthropological, political, type books. Rather than pure Theoretical.

 

[DotCommunist]

Whilst I agree it isn't a good example of a direct comparison, you make out that this software has now been written and can be shared forever more. Rather than the reality of it being an ongoing project involving thousands of people that continues to grow and branch out into new things and ideas. The difference between this happening freely in software but not in the fields is that computers don't have an equivalent of the enclosures act, imo.

the analogies will never mesh really because I can say that farming is a millenia long crowdsourced project eventually corraled into the hands of a few at the expense of us all, but the produce- the hypothetical turnip- will always take months to grow. No matter how clever or complex the coding, once its done it can be straight copied in a matter of minutes. The problem with distributing physical resources equitably without tokens of exchange or marker would be enormous. Reminds me of that anti piracy ad 'YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A CAR!'

yeah I fucking would. Its just not possible though

 

[xenon]

Fair enough. But my point was less about what it would look like, and more countering the statement "a society couldn't function without trade". Stripped down, all a society does is produces stuff and distributes it. We could argue that the distribution is trade if we want and even the supply. But it normally means something different to that. And I don't necessarily think post capitalism equates to barter systems. There's loads of examples of this stuff happening alongside what we have now presently. Such as open source software. How does that come about without trade or bartering?

Bartering is not and need not be the crude kind of I've got pigs I want textiles. Don't invite Cameron obviously. but anyway, things like open source software. Well that just comes from people with the skill seeing a problem that needs solving just getting on with it. Very much like the people going over to Calais. Cooperation is fundamental to human evolution. Of course there is self interest. You want to ensure your own survival before that of some stranger. But capitalism And the myth of the free market rational individual being all there is is one of its egregeous lies.

er I guess we all knew that anyway. But I can't answer the rest offhand.

 

[xenon]

But it's interesting that the former has chosen to do this. Rather than profit from it. Actually not even profit from it, not even be paid for it. Now, obviously they're in the financial position to be able to do that. And the latter couldn't because they're not in the financial position to do that. But what if they were? Isn't this what free communism is? We all produce knowing that at the end of it all we're not going to be evicted and we'll be well fed, have nice stuff etc? It's interesting that things such as Linux came about without profit in mind.

but you do this too. If I recall you know electrics. You would advise someone, give free advice to someone regarding electrical power and whatnot. You don't write it down in a book and demand they pay for it. Sharing knowledge and skills to help people out. You wouldn't do this to detriment of your own survival, there is that balance to be made with any exchange. But people ultimately do Generally want to share if it doesn't harm themselves.

 

[Batboy]

A builder owns a firm. Bricklayers, roofers, labourers etc do the graft. People who own multiple cafes employing others are petit bourgeouis at the very least.

I worked many years in the construction business. A building company/builder sub contracts these works out and normally finances and project manages the works and that is fucking hard graft, so again you are talking nonsense.. Virtually all Carpenters roofers, electricians, bricklayers tradespersons are self employed and handle there own tax affairs. I very recently had a row with an electrician after they tried to charge me 3k for three days work.

Most tradespeople (Certainly in London) earn a decent whack (Although I guess that is subjective). What do you charge as a day rate as an electrician?

People who own multiple cafes are offering employment to people and providing they are paying them well, what is the problem?

 

[Batboy]

Do I recall a previous thread where boss class Batboy was upset because boss class Jewish syndicates had infiltrated his patch which is bad because Batboy is a fairer form of boss class because of his working class background?!

oh do fuck off! I am not going to be sucked into this argument again.. context context context something that gets so lost in the bunfights on U75.

 

[Batboy]

Alternative should not include "Throat slitting" as part of its intellectual armoury I feel........

It is such a tenuous link it defies belief. Perhaps if I had said rammed a kebab skewer down their throat I could get the link. The Turkish business community all along Stoke Newington consists of cafe/restaurant owners, Mini Supermarkets, Printers Florists Mini Cab offices etc etc... At the time of the London riots they set up their own patrols to protect their businesses . Class War go after soft targets, never in a zillion years would they target these shops or go and start a riot by attacking a football club, because they know they would get mashed up. Fucking hypocrites and cowards.

 

[Citizen66]

I worked many years in the construction business. A building company/builder sub contracts these works out and normally finances and project manages the works and that is fucking hard graft, so again you are talking nonsense.. Virtually all Carpenters roofers, electricians, bricklayers tradespersons are self employed and handle there own tax affairs. I very recently had a row with an electrician after they tried to charge me 3k for three days work.

Most tradespeople (Certainly in London) earn a decent whack (Although I guess that is subjective). What do you charge as a day rate as an electrician?

People who own multiple cafes are offering employment to people and providing they are paying them well, what is the problem?

I don't do private work. I'm on a salary. What do you earn you nosey cunt?