Feminism - where are the threads?

[Celyn]

That'll be why I remember the name. I think I might have been more explicitly accused going forward.

Do you know what is getting to me is no one wants to talk about the children caught up in this.

I'm off to bed now. We're off to a circus skills thing tomorrow. I call disappointed kids because they're talking trapeze acts and we know h&s wont let that happen.

I'd really like to talk about what's happening with girls and transitioning. I'm a mother. My sons have friends who are changing gender and all of them are girls. I'm sorry I feel concerned. And I only say sorry because in the eyes of here I'm a bigot and transphobic apparently. I'm not. I feel very concerned about three teenage girls I know because their parents are torn. It is scary as a parent. Hormones changes girls forever. And we're hearing more about necessitative hystorectomies. It's scary as fuck

 

[Celyn]

.

 

[xenon]

Those of you attacking the OP, saying she must be returner blah blah blah. For fuck’s sake you are an embarrassment. Just argue with what is being said or not. Some posters can manage it. All this and I know what your game is blah blah blah. Pathetic wankers. Fuck this.

 

[xenon]

Too many blahs in that, but you get the gist.

 

[ginger_syn]

Heartless

Please I've only just stopped randomly chuckling, watching the rules of film noir helped don't set me off again.

 

[BristolEcho]

Are you disagreeing that we should not look into why there is a 4000% in girls transitioning? And that there are a significant amount of detransitioners?

Where is the 4000% coming from? Trying to find it but I can't? Genuinely interested.

 

[nyxx]

Judith B doesn’t give a flying fuck about a reported 81% rise in hate crime against trans people & spent considerable energy in trolling the discussion thread on it. But she wants everyone here to be concerned about some figure she’s pulled out of her arse as regards teenagers potentially transitioning.


Oh and now anyone who criticises or disagrees with her is a bully.

And anyone participating in the discussion has to disclose what’s in their pants now.

 

[ginger_syn]

OK to make it simpler for those at the back.

Do you have the same genitalia as the person who birthed you? If you are intersex (and I apologise to my sister if I am now insensitive) did the tests you had when you were a tiny baby of a day or so old confirm you were male or female?

Did that make the question simpler?

Inappropriate weird sense of humour episode is mostly under control so,
You do realise you have turned a simple question into a more complicated and offensive one don't you, though as you made the effort to frame it that way you must. Your posts are very dishonest aren't they which is why i won't debate with you because thats not what you want,
You seem to just want an opportunity to lie and misinform people.

 

[ginger_syn]

Then why are you up in my mentions for asking about safeguarding and why there's a 4000% rise in girls transitioning? I cannot believe you want to shout bigot without examining something of what I might be saying?

No idea about what that first sentence is about, i have not called you a bigot, i called you a liar and i have looked at what you've said and I'm sorry to say there is bigotry there, you seem bewildered that I as a born female(feels a little bit icky typing that) would support transpeople, why wouldn't I.

 

[JudithB]

I think I have now had a week of what I was advised yesterday by a kind poster would happen. If this is going to happen to me I might as well raise the one big concern I have. The rapid rise in girls transitioning.

Minister orders inquiry into 4,000 per cent rise in children wanting to change sex

Investigation as number of girls seeking gender transition treatment rises 4,515 percent

Investigation ordered after number of 'transitioning referrals' increase by four thousand per cent | Daily Mail Online

Why are so many teenage girls appearing in gender clinics?



Why Is Transgender Identity on the Rise Among Teens?

You can "see me" as much as you want. I really am passed caring. If I have an audience for whatever reason I might as well ask the question. Why do we think girls are taking these sometimes radical or even drastic steps with their lives?

 

[Edie]

Honestly, I think for the majority it’s just a fad. They’ll experiment a bit (and why not so long as it’s all social and not medical- it’s probably a good thing!). They’ll enjoy the attention, in the way teenage girls enjoy the drama. And then for the majority they’ll grow though it.

True dysphoria is no doubt much rarer. But that will come out in the wash and persist much beyond the young ones who are experimenting with identity in a fairly standard teenage way.

I think smokedout has pointed out before that only a tiny minority get puberty blockers or hormone treatment, and no child gets surgery. I find this reassuring and it inoculates against “panic”.

The other thing to note is this is largely a middle class South of England phenomenon. I know there will be some kids in Leeds who are trans, of course there will. But there’s no fad here. Frankly at where my kids go to school it’s too rough for that shit. I’m not necessarily saying that’s a good or a bad thing, but it is a thing.

 

[Athos]

I think I have now had a week of what I was advised yesterday by a kind poster would happen. If this is going to happen to me I might as well raise the one big concern I have. The rapid rise in girls transitioning.

Minister orders inquiry into 4,000 per cent rise in children wanting to change sex

Investigation as number of girls seeking gender transition treatment rises 4,515 percent

Investigation ordered after number of 'transitioning referrals' increase by four thousand per cent | Daily Mail Online

Why are so many teenage girls appearing in gender clinics?



Why Is Transgender Identity on the Rise Among Teens?

You can "see me" as much as you want. I really am passed caring. If I have an audience for whatever reason I might as well ask the question. Why do we think girls are taking these sometimes radical or even drastic steps with their lives?

Littman's (controversial) study points towards a hypothesis that the rise is largely made up of young females with ROGD (a term as yet unrecognised by the mainstream medical community), and that social contagion might play a significant role in that. The study is not perfect, but has largely withstood an incredible amount of academic scrutiny (the corrected version stressed the methodology, but the conclusions remained the same), despite being the target of an ideological campaign. It's not conclusive on this point, but doesn't claim to be; it does flag an area for further robust scientific investigation. However, that's being actively resisted by those who fear it'll undermine the 'born that way' narrative, and universities don't want the grief such research attracts (meaning the interests if those young people are sacrificed).

 

[Pickman's model]

When are you going to get over the fact I am a woman and I am not some male person coming here to virtually tug on your penis for lols?

Feminism mean women having concerns of their own that have nothing to do with you except if you are one of the 98% of perpetrators that hurt us. It's that simple. This is not a conspiracy

I'd prefer it if you didn't refer to me as Picky, check the FAQ for the bar on fucking about with usernames

When will you realise I haven't said you're a man?

 

[Thimble Queen]

OK to make it simpler for those at the back.

Do you have the same genitalia as the person who birthed you? If you are intersex (and I apologise to my sister if I am now insensitive) did the tests you had when you were a tiny baby of a day or so old confirm you were male or female?

Did that make the question simpler?

This is massively out of line.

 

[Red Cat]

Littman's (controversial) study points towards a hypothesis that the rise is largely made up of young females with ROGD (a term as yet unrecognised by the mainstream medical community), and that social contagion might play a significant role in that. The study is not perfect, but has largely withstood an incredible amount of academic scrutiny (the corrected version stressed the methodology, but the conclusions remained the same), despite being the target of an ideological campaign. It's not conclusive on this point, but doesn't claim to be; it does flag an area for further robust scientific investigation. However, that's being actively resisted by those who fear it'll undermine the 'born that way' narrative, and universities don't want the grief such research attracts (meaning the interests if those young people are sacrificed).

I wonder why you assume that research isn't happening currently? When you repeat this 'robust scientific investigation' line you're suggesting that it doesn't take place, that clinicians in the field aren't doing this.

But also, the idea that scientific research will provide clear answers rather underestimates the complexity of working with these young people, any young people with difficulties of some kind - I do wonder, what kind of scientific research is going to give you the information you're looking for? What will that look like?

 

[Pickman's model]

Picky does that mean you are all male?

It means I am male or female

 

[Athos]

I wonder why you assume that research isn't happening currently? When you repeat this 'robust scientific investigation' line you're suggesting that it doesn't take place, that clinicians in the field aren't doing this.

But also, the idea that scientific research will provide clear answers rather underestimates the complexity of working with these young people, any young people with difficulties of some kind - I do wonder, what kind of scientific research is going to give you the information you're looking for? What will that look like?

I don't assume that research isn't taking place; I know that it is - very important research, often led by clinicians. (Though I also know some institutions have been put off research in this area, due to the controversy.)

And I appreciate that the nature of this area will mean that we're unlikely to get black and white answers. But I'd like to see an investigation into the hypothesised phenomenon of ROGD that's more methodically sound than Littman's (particularly around sampling/recruitment, and speaking to young people themselves).

Essentially, I'd be keen to for any decent research that can clarify whether the sudden upturn in the number of girls being referred is because they've always felt this way and are only now confident to say it, or whether it's developed suddenly because adolescence is hard and this is a way to deal with that which is popular with their peer group.

Because it seems to me a one size fits all approach to anyone who says they're trans (i.e. affirmation) might be failing some young people (both those who'd go on to detransition, and those who've always known they're trans from a very young age, but are considered with suspicion as jumping in the trend).

 

[kebabking]

Most of the kids in my daughters (15) class last year were 'pan', now they're something else that I don't particularly understand - I rather doubt that the 4000% is a solid number: it rather sounds like an amalgam of the number of girls who answered yes to 'wouldn't it be great to be able to take a piss in a field like a boy', and boys who, on a roasting hot day in black school trousers, thought it would be a lot more comfortable to wear a skirt.

If you're an obsessive bigot, then this is a Trans Army - if you're everyone else it's just kids being kids.

I do think Judith is a bigot, I think she wants somewhere to broadcast her views and not have to deal with counter arguments, I don't see her wanting to be part of a community, I think she wants a stage.

She might be genuine, she might be trolling - personally I couldn't care less...

 

[Athos]

... it rather sounds like an amalgam of the number of girls who answered yes to 'wouldn't it be great to be able to take a piss in a field like a boy'...

No, it's not girls who quite like the idea of a stand-up piss; it's girls referred for treatment.

 

[BristolEcho]

I think I have now had a week of what I was advised yesterday by a kind poster would happen. If this is going to happen to me I might as well raise the one big concern I have. The rapid rise in girls transitioning.

Minister orders inquiry into 4,000 per cent rise in children wanting to change sex

Investigation as number of girls seeking gender transition treatment rises 4,515 percent

Investigation ordered after number of 'transitioning referrals' increase by four thousand per cent | Daily Mail Online

Why are so many teenage girls appearing in gender clinics?



Why Is Transgender Identity on the Rise Among Teens?

You can "see me" as much as you want. I really am passed caring. If I have an audience for whatever reason I might as well ask the question. Why do we think girls are taking these sometimes radical or even drastic steps with their lives?

Thanks. Why do you think they are? Not sure how comfortable I feel with the terms radical and drastic are unhelpful. When supporting someone through this they are terms I'd avoid.

 

[smokedout]

Why if you are a woman and so may other trans women (barring the GC transwomen I know) really seem to ignore the obvious safeguarding concerns we raise? I've stated mulitple times on these boards that it isn't transwomen it's the worry of Self ID and what that means to those who WILL abuse it. Why do you as a woman keep bashing us down? When we will fight for your rights. You do know that we are not ever going to ask for your rights to be taken away. Like your side (who physically attack women) we have bad apples. I would not count Posie or Julia Long as my campadres. Do you condone the behaviour of the Cathy Brennan and Tara Wolf?

ETA to change what was a ? to a full stop after your rights

Why would you rather personalise this then answer the point? You claimed that the events I posted, events which are important to understand for anyone interested in the history of this conflict were revisionist, a strong word as I'm sure you realise, yet you have failed to show that, or to provide an alternative history. So are you prepared to back up this claim or not?

And its pretty rude to assume people's sex or gender, I have discussed my relationship to gender on the thread you refuse to read or post, I'm certainly not doing it with you here, mostly because I don't believe you are the really interested, you're just so mired in identity politics that you think you might be able to use it to score points.

 

[chilango]

You know what?

If for whatever reason I wanted to disrupt, fuck up even, a community such as this then I would do it now, when then the community is under real strain because of certain debates. Yeah, I'd appear right now and in the manner that JudithB has appeared.

I'm not saying that that is what she is doing, but the impact may end up being the same.

I may have a cock and balls but I've been part of this community for 15 years, and seen the genuine positives it has had for many if its members. I don't want to see that lost.

So Judith, if you're here with honest intentions, stick around, join the community and contribute to it in a wider sense. Build those relationships, read and learn about who people are, what they believe and then think about what it's worth saying and what's not.

 

[smokedout]

Most of the kids in my daughters (15) class last year were 'pan', now they're something else that I don't particularly understand - I rather doubt that the 4000% is a solid number: it rather sounds like an amalgam of the number of girls who answered yes to 'wouldn't it be great to be able to take a piss in a field like a boy', and boys who, on a roasting hot day in black school trousers, thought it would be a lot more comfortable to wear a skirt.

If you're an obsessive bigot, then this is a Trans Army - if you're everyone else it's just kids being kids.

I do think Judith is a bigot, I think she wants somewhere to broadcast her views and not have to deal with counter arguments, I don't see her wanting to be part of a community, I think she wants a stage.

She might be genuine, she might be trolling - personally I couldn't care less...

There has been a large rise in referrals to children's gender identity services, and trans boys now outnumber trans girls, but we're still talking about one in ten thousand kids, many do not have any treatment at all and the vast majority are over 15.

The reason for the rise is unknown but increased acceptance of trans people, as well as a rise in awareness that this service exists amongst GPs, parents and kids themselves is likely to be a significant factor. And the truth is that this is still way below the rate of trans adults and given most trans people report gender dysphoria beginning in childhood then it seems that most trans kids are not being identified or given any support. As Edie says, there may be a fashion for experimenting with gender amongst kids at middle class schools in the South of England, but elsewhere sadly it seems likely most gender divergent children are still in the closet and scared to come out.

 

[Edie]

So Judith, if you're here with honest intentions, stick around, join the community and contribute to it in a wider sense. Build those relationships, read and learn about who people are, what they believe and then think about what it's worth saying and what's not.

I certainly think this is true. And is a bit like my urge to want to take it offline and face to face where people are more gentle and compassionate. But really, CdL coming back (and I won’t tag her because she’s indicated she wants to step out of it for a bit) has made me really think about how I’d actually deal with this in real life rather than as a theoretical online debate which is what this is for me right now. And the answer is that if it was my best mate in real life’s kid who was struggling with their gender identity, who had been pushed to the edge, who was off her head with worry about what would happen to them, whether they’d be supported, accepted, then obviously I’d do anything I could for them.

It’s the friendships that have built over time, and that have been tested to the limit and beyond the limit, that matter. stethoscope for example, I care about her.

I’ve given up pretending I have any answers in this debate. It’s just so emotive.

 

[Red Cat]

I don't assume that research isn't taking place; I know that it is - very important research, often led by clinicians. (Though I also know some institutions have been put off research in this area, due to the controversy.)

And I appreciate that the nature of this area will mean that we're unlikely to get black and white answers. But I'd like to see an investigation into the hypothesised phenomenon of ROGD that's more methodically sound than Littman's (particularly around sampling/recruitment, and speaking to young people themselves).

Essentially, I'd be keen to for any decent research that can clarify whether the sudden upturn in the number of girls being referred is because they've always felt this way and are only now confident to say it, or whether it's developed suddenly because adolescence is hard and this is a way to deal with that which is popular with their peer group.

Because it seems to me a one size fits all approach to anyone who says they're trans (i.e. affirmation) might be failing some young people (both those who'd go on to detransition, and those who've always known they're trans from a very young age, but are considered with suspicion as jumping in the trend).

Thing is Athos the only GID service for young people in this country doesn't have a one size fits all approach at all. They're very clear that they work on a case by case basis and they say this repeatedly.

I certainly hope that the clinical research is being led by clinicians. However, I'd suggest the upturn in referrals is a multifactorial phenomenon.

 

[Athos]

Thing is Athos the only GID service for young people in this country doesn't have a one size fits all approach at all. They're very clear that they work on a case by case basis and they say this repeatedly.

I certainly hope that the clinical research is being led by clinicians. However, I'd suggest the upturn in referrals is a multifactorial phenomenon.

Yet many from within that service have expressed concerns about a prevailing approach that's not evidence-based. Not saying it goes against the evidence, necessarily, but that there are big gaps - which is why I'd like to see a decent follow-up to Littman's work.

I've no doubt it's a multi factorial causation. Which is why some way of picking apart the cause(s) in individual cases (so that treatment can be more effectively tailored) is so important.

That still meets a lot of resistance, or even downright hostility, though.

 

[quimcunx]

And not giving a mention or perhaps a care to the 4000% uprise in young girls transitioning? Yes laugh at me all you want.
There is a massive rise in detransitioners. Why are you concentrating on calling ppl like me bigots and not looking into what is actually happening to children and young adults?

From purely a statistical pov if there has been a massive rise in transitioners then there will likely also be a rise in detransitioners. I dont know what the numbers are but it's interesting that you use % instead of numbers.

What was the increase in gay people after it became legal/more acceptable? How many more people felt free or safer to contemplate or explore the possibility before settling on heterosexuality, bisexuality or homosexuality?







I've seen it asked what the moral panic will be for our generation now we are parents seeing as we were so cool with our drugs and our gay friends. I think we've found it.

As a society we are in a constant state of transition, if you will excuse the pun. In 20 years we may have moved on to the equivalent of gay marriage, whatever that is.

 

[Red Cat]

Yet many from within that service have expressed concerns about a prevailing approach that's not evidence-based. Not saying it goes against the evidence, necessarily, but that there are big gaps - which is why I'd like to see a decent follow-up to Littman's work.

I've no doubt it's a multi factorial causation. Which is why some way of picking apart the cause(s) in individual cases (so that treatment can be more effectively tailored) is so important.

That still meets a lot of resistance, or even downright hostility, though.

You're oversimplifying the picture. The criticism isn't that it's not evidence-based, it's that the approach of the GIDS is out of step with the cautious exploratory psychoanalytic approach that characterises the rest of the work done by the Tavistock and Portman. What David Bell says, amongst other reported criticisms, was that there isn't sufficient time and space given to exploring individual and family history and context and trauma. I'm sure that's the case. There is less and less time given to exploring individual and family histories in clinics everywhere as all services have huge waiting lists and have become increasingly medical with a focus on through-put. The people making criticisms are making them from the point of view of the need to get to know the patient/client first and foremost, over time, that's the kind of evidence they, and I, believe is needed.

David Bell and Marcus Evans are very senior clinicians. I know that because this is my field. I have their books, I read their papers, and if I saw they were speaking at a conference, I would try to attend. I'm very interested and take very seriously what they say. But the media is simplifying a complex political and clinical picture; as they can't even report correctly which service these two clinicians work for, I don't trust them with much else. They don't work for GIDS, they are senior staff in the Tavistock Clinic.

 

[Athos]

You're oversimplifying the picture. The criticism isn't that it's not evidence-based, it's that the approach of the GIDS is out of step with the cautious exploratory psychoanalytic approach that characterises the rest of the work done by the Tavistock and Portman. What David Bell says, amongst other reported criticisms, was that there isn't sufficient time and space given to exploring individual and family history and context and trauma. I'm sure that's the case. There is less and less time given to exploring individual and family histories in clinics everywhere as all services have huge waiting lists and have become increasingly medical with a focus on through-put. The people making criticisms are making them from the point of view of the need to get to know the patient/client first and foremost, over time, that's the kind of evidence they, and I, believe is needed.

David Bell and Marcus Evans are very senior clinicians. I know that because this is my field. I have their books, I read their papers, and if I saw they were speaking at a conference, I would try to attend. I'm very interested and take very seriously what they say. But the media is simplifying a complex political and clinical picture; as they can't even report correctly which service these two clinicians work for, I don't trust them with much else. They don't work for GIDS, they are senior staff in the Tavistock Clinic.

Surely a lack of individual history is an aspect of lack of evidence?

But I accept your criticism that I'm over-simplifying; I'm a lay person, without your expertise in this field.

In any event, fundamentally, I don't think we disagree about that much.

 

[Red Cat]

Surely a lack of individual history is an aspect of lack of evidence?

But I accept your criticism that I'm over-simplifying; I'm a lay person, without your expertise in this field.

In any event, fundamentally, I don't think we disagree about that much.

Yes, but it's not the same as THE EVIDENCE BASE which is political.

I'm not an expert in GIDS, I would never want to give that impression, but I do understand some of the context at the Tavistock and wider services/ practice.