Feminism - where are the threads?

[Athos]

Gender dysphoria

Unless, of course, those who do experience GD actively seek each other out, which you'd have thought they'd be quite likely to do.

What does this mean? And is it the same as being trans?

"A survey of 10,000 people undertaken in 2012 by the Equality and Human Rights Commission found that 1% of the population surveyed was gender variant, to some extent."

The pattern being reported is of longstanding groups with no obvious GD links. But, in fairness, that's largely anecdotal. Which is why I'd like to see a decent follow-up to Littman's work, to see why the sudden increase - whether it's entirely down to an increased willingness to come out, and/or down to social contagion (and/or something else). Wouldn't you?

 

[andysays]

if one in a hundred kids are trans, the chances of, say, four girls in a group of ten being trans are very, very small. Yet this story of clustering is being reported by many...

The source for this clustering may already have been posted, but would you mind posting it again please

 

[belboid]

What does this mean? And is it the same as being trans?

"A survey of 10,000 people undertaken in 2012 by the Equality and Human Rights Commission found that 1% of the population surveyed was gender variant, to some extent."

The pattern being reported is of longstanding groups with no obvious GD links. But, in fairness, that's largely anecdotal. Which is why I'd like to see a decent follow-up to Littman's work, to see why the sudden increase - whether it's entirely down to an increased willingness to come out, and/or down to social contagion (and/or something else). Wouldn't you?

No it isn't, it is reporting that on the numbers who say they experience some kind of gender 'variance' - it is using deliberately vague terms, partly to test out what terms are appropriate. But trans and Gender dysphoria is what smokedout referred to

 

[Athos]

No it isn't, it is reporting that on the numbers who say they experience some kind of gender 'variance' - it is using deliberately vague terms, partly to test out what terms are appropriate. But trans and Gender dysphoria is what smokedout referred to

Yes, and I asked for a source for the claim of 1% being trans and/or having gender dysphoria. The survey you quoted isn't evidence of that, since it asked about something different called "gender variance."

Would you mind answering the question at the end of the post you quoted, please?

 

[Athos]

The source for this clustering may already have been posted, but would you mind posting it again please

Not very readily from my phone, but if you search these boards for 'Littman' I think you'll find a link. Don't read too much into it though; it raises a hypothesis, rather than purporting to prove it.

 

[belboid]

Yes, and I asked for a source for the claim of 1% being trans and/or having gender dysphoria. The survey you quoted isn't evidence of that, since it asked about something different called "gender variance."

Would you mind answering the question at the end of the post you quoted, please?

Not particularly different. For the terms of this discussion it is close enough. Indeed, it was part of the point.

As for your question - I'm not fussed. Yes there will be some social influence, but I do not think that that is a particularly important question to be asking.

 

[andysays]

Not very readily from my phone, but if you search these boards for 'Littman' I think you'll find a link. Don't read too much into it though; it raises a hypothesis, rather than purporting to prove it.

Found it. This is the link for anyone else who hasn't read it yet

Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria

 

[Athos]

Not particularly different. For the terms of this discussion it is close enough. Indeed, it was part of the point.

As for your question - I'm not fussed. Yes there will be some social influence, but I do not think that that is a particularly important question to be asking.

Is it close enough? What does "gender variance"mean, then?

I'm surprised you're not fussed, given the importance of understanding the differing reasons for children identifying as trans in tailoring their treatment. It seems to me you might need to differentiate between a kid who's long felt they're 'in the wrong body', and, say, a young girl for whom identifying as trans is this generation's alternative to e.g. anorexia or self-harm. Especially given the potential for lifelong consequences of treatment.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is it close enough? What does "gender variance"mean, then?

I'm surprised you're not fussed, given the importance of understanding the differing reasons for children identifying as trans in tailoring their treatment. It seems to me you might need to differentiate between a kid who's long felt they're 'in the wrong body, and, say, a young girl for whom identifying as trans is this generation's alternative to e.g. anorexia or self-harm. Especially given the potential for lifelong consequences of treatment.

how would you differentiate between the two - how, specifically, would you tell them apart?

 

[belboid]

Is it close enough? What does "gender variance"mean, then?

Yes it is. And look at the paper if you genuinely care and aren't just trying to divert the discussion onto some barely relevant point, once again.

I'm surprised you're not fussed, given the importance of understanding the differing reasons for children identifying as trans in tailoring their treatment. It seems to me you might need to differentiate between a kid who's long felt they're 'in the wrong body, and, say, a young girl for whom identifying as trans is this generation's alternative to e.g. anorexia or self-harm. Especially given the potential for lifelong consequences of treatment.[/QUOTE]
Littman's theories are irrelevant to that though. Doing as you suggest 'simply'* requires exploring individual and family history and context and trauma. Of the individual.


* In inverted commas cos obviously doing so isn't really 'simple'

 

[Athos]

how would you differentiate between the two - how, specifically, would you tell them apart?

I don't know. Hopefully, that's something further research might help establish.

 

[Athos]

Yes it is. And look at the paper if you genuinely care and aren't just trying to divert the discussion onto some barely relevant point, once again.

Littman's theories are irrelevant to that though. Doing as you suggest 'simply'* requires exploring individual and family history and context and trauma. Of the individual.

* In inverted commas cos obviously doing so isn't really 'simple'

You don't know what "gender variance" means in this context, do you?

The trouble with confining scientific enquiry to individual cases in the present is that they provide little help in forecasting outcomes in the way that understanding the individual history and the evidence of a large scale longitudinal study might.

I don't think it can be in children's interests to resist a better understanding of this phenomenon.

 

[belboid]

Littman's theories are irrelevant to that though. Doing as you suggest 'simply'* requires exploring individual and family history and context and trauma. Of the individual.


* In inverted commas cos obviously doing so isn't really 'simple'

You don't know what "gender variance" means in this context, do you?

Oh fuck off, you patronising shit.

The trouble with confining scientific enquiry to individual cases in the present is that they provide no way to forecast outcomes in the way that, say, a large scale longitudinal study might. I don't think it can be in children's interests to resist a better understanding of this phenomenon.

In terms of priorities, this particular anecdote based theory strikes me as a far way down the list. An aspect to be included in a broader study, perhaps. The promotion of it as such a key area just strikes me as looking for a theory to justify a pre-existing bias.

 

[Athos]

Oh fuck off, you patronising shit.

Thought not.

In terms of priorities, this particular anecdote based theory strikes me as a far way down the list. An aspect to be included in a broader study, perhaps. The promotion of it as such a key area just strikes me as looking for a theory to justify a pre-existing bias.

Well, I'd expect nothing less of you. But I suspect most reasonable people would think it pretty important, where possible, to understand why children present with the distress they do, before deciding the best way to treat them.

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't know. Hopefully, that's something further research might help establish.

i'm not sure saying it's a bit of a fad like anorexia's the best way to describe your alternative to dysphoria. this may not be your intended meaning, but you seem to me to suggest it. do people really set out to identify as anorexic?

 

[Athos]

i'm not sure saying it's a bit of a fad like anorexia's the best way to describe your alternative to dysphoria. this may not be your intended meaning, but you seem to me to suggest it. do people really set out to identify as anorexic?

I don't believe anorexia or kids identifying as trans are fads (and didn't say or imply that). The way in which psychological distress manifests is socially mediated, and changes over time and place.

 

[weepiper]

This thread doesn't seem to be about feminism any more

 

[belboid]

Well, I'd expect nothing less of you. But I suspect most reasonable people would think it pretty important, where possible, to understand why children present with the distress they do, before deciding the best way to treat them.

That isn't really a response to what I wrote, is it? Why do you think Littman is the only/the key theory that should be studied? Because it fits with your pre-conceived bias. In my view, it is far too limited a way of looking at why young people present. Pretty much a side issue.

 

[8ball]

i'm not sure saying it's a bit of a fad like anorexia's the best way to describe your alternative to dysphoria. this may not be your intended meaning, but you seem to me to suggest it. do people really set out to identify as anorexic?

If I was looking for a trendy label, I probably wouldn't go for the one with the highest mortality of any mental illness.

 

[andysays]

Found it. This is the link for anyone else who hasn't read it yet

Parent reports of adolescents and young adults perceived to show signs of a rapid onset of gender dysphoria

I may have missed something on my relatively brief look at this study, but as far as I can see it's based (as the title suggests) entirely on parental reports of young people perceived by their parents to show signs of rapid onset gender dysphoria.

In other words it is not in any way (and nor does it claim to be) a broad study of gender dysphoria in general, and neither does it support Athos's earlier claim to have identified clusters

...if one in a hundred kids are trans, the chances of, say, four girls in a group of ten being trans are very, very small. Yet this story of clustering is being reported by many...

as it is only concerned with young people perceived by their parents to show signs of rapid onset gender dysphoria, so there is no accurate measure of how many young people in a given group, however defined, are not showing such signs.

If I've missed or misunderstood something in this study, Athos, please point it out to me.

 

[Athos]

That isn't really a response to what I wrote, is it? Why do you think Littman is the only/the key theory that should be studied? Because it fits with your pre-conceived bias. In my view, it is far too limited a way of looking at why young people present. Pretty much a side issue.

I don't think it's the only/the key theory they should be studied. The idea that I do is entirely a figment of your imagination.

 

[Pickman's model]

this has been playing on my mind today

I don't think feminism is that at all, it's a very peculiar form of feminism you practice if it's nothing to do with men unless they're rapists or gropers. Doesn't your feminism have anything to say about equality in the workplace or home?

JudithB you've been back at least twice today, maybe on your next swing by you could answer my post

 

[belboid]

I don't think it's the only/the key theory they should be studied. The idea that I do is entirely a figment of your imagination.

As it is the one you go on and on about, I think everyone else can see precisely where I got that impression from.

 

[8ball]

This thread doesn't seem to be about feminism any more

Didn't somebody find the threads?

 

[Athos]

I may have missed something on my relatively brief look at this study, but as far as I can see it's based (as the title suggests) entirely on parental reports of young people perceived by their parents to show signs of rapid onset gender dysphoria.

In other words it is not in any way (and nor does it claim to be) a broad study of gender dysphoria in general, and neither does it support Athos's earlier claim to have identified clusters

as it is only concerned with young people perceived by their parents to show signs of rapid onset gender dysphoria, so there is no accurate measure of how many young people in a given group, however defined, are not showing such signs.

If I've missed or misunderstood something in this study, Athos, please point it out to me.

When referring you to it I explicitly gave a 'health warning' that it suggests a hypothesis, rather than purports to prove it! I've recognised it's limitations, as, indeed does the author. The only claim I've made for it is that it's a starting point for further and better research. (And, on the clusters/social contagion point it does say: "In 36.8% of the friendship groups described, parent participants indicated that the majority of the members became transgender-identified.")

 

[andysays]

I don't think it's the only/the key theory they should be studied. The idea that I do is entirely a figment of your imagination.

Here's what just happened

1. I asked for a source for your claim about clusters,
2. You referred me to the Littman study.
3. I don't think the study backs up your claim

Not sure why you're talking about figments of my imagination

 

[Athos]

As it is the one you go on and on about, I think everyone else can see precisely where I got that impression from.

Lol! That I "go on and on" about it is a straight up lie: I've raised the study once (that was on this thread), and responded to it being raised by another poster in one other thread (the TERF one), some months ago (both times expressing reservations about it).

 

[killer b]

This thread doesn't seem to be about feminism any more

Congratulations on being the first (and only) woman to post on this page.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

JudithB you've been back at least twice today, maybe on your next swing by you could answer my post

How the fuck do you know?

Mate, "keeping an eye on" (stalking) people who you don't like is creepy as fuck.

 

[Athos]

Here's what just happened

1. I asked for a source for your claim about clusters,
2. You referred me to the Littman study.
3. I don't think the study backs up your claim

Not sure why you're talking about figments of my imagination

I didn't make any claim about clusters beyond saying that there are reports of clusters; that some parents report clusters is reflected in the line from Littman's article to which I referred.

I've not mentioned your imagination - that was a reply to belboid.