Feminism - where are the threads?
- Thread starter JudithB
- Start date
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
This thread doesn't seem to be about feminism any more
It's so convienient that men have found a way to stop women talking about women's issues, isn't it?
Antifeminism ain't dead.
Well done lads.
Athos
Well-Known Member
This thread doesn't seem to be about feminism any more
You're right. I'm out of this for now.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Apologies about the imagination bit, I misread.
But the rest of your claim about clusters is in no way demonstrated by the study you pointed me to.
Athos
Well-Known Member
My claim was that clusters were reported; those reports were mentioned by Littman. We seem to be at an impasse about what Littman says; I've quoted the part - happy to let people interpret as they will.
In any event...
I do think this should move to the other thread but it is the case that JudithB refuses to post on their and insisted on posting about trans issues on this one, including demanding we all give our opinions on trans children.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
How the fuck do I know? Because I clicked on her profile twice to see if she'd posted today. You'd know all about creepy of course with your nice insinuation I called you racist, classist etc when I've never done anything of the sort.
Athos
Well-Known Member
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Mate I said that it's how this forum operates, that posters like to find scapegoats. Not that you called me names. It's not about you.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Anyways, it's all womenz fault.
Fuck this shit. I'm out.
Fuck this shit. I'm out.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh snide to the end, I didn't see many other posters named in the post
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Another man who can't differentiate between critique of culture, and critique of himself.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Yeh. You were replying to a post about me, other posters thought the post referred to me, you can see how I might get the notion. But, hey, if none of it was aimed at me I'm glad to hear it
sheothebudworths
Up the bum - no babies!!!
For additional context, at one of my local schools (reported as 'the coolest state school in town' - by Tatler, apparently
), in Brighton, where Allsorts are the go-to project to run awareness courses within schools, 2.5% of kids identify as trans, with a further 2.25% identifying as gender fluid.Allsorts did a 'trans inclusion day' at the (different) secondary school that my daughter attends in the same city but there's been no separate LGBT awareness education, other than what is taught as standard.
I would like schools to give a better rounded view of sexuality, along with gender, with some more focused stuff on what they are *allowed* to be, as they are, too - and I won't apologise for worrying about that, even in *inclusive* Brighton, particularly/especially for the girls, cos I know loads of girls who're struggling with this - and, for certain, a small number for whom coming out as a lesbian has been way more difficult than relating to gender issues as a starting point to that.
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
Is it possible, that if we’d all grown up believing trans to be a viable and acceptable life, that the numbers of trans people in the older population would be much higher?
Puddy_Tat
naturally fluffy
Or for those of a certain age, grown up knowing the concept even existed...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The first trans person I met, about 20 years ago, was a pensioner trans woman
spanglechick
High Empress of Dressing Up
I know you can’t have read my comment as meaning that older trans people don’t exist, so I’m at a loss as to the relevance...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Growing up in a grim northern town I had no idea that lesbians or gay men even existed. No concept at all. I'd heard those words as insults but it didn't imagine it was possible to live with another person of the same sex? The only person who I'd met irl who might have been gay or trans was very sad and utterly shunned.
Only hetro sex in marriage with strictly enforced gender roles allowed - indeed it was compulsory. Nothing else was socially acceptable - we were all deviant, sinful, perverted and queer if not actally illegal. We all went to the same clubs as so there were so few of us.
The ideas of trans /queer/ sexuality and gender were all mixed up in the 70s/80/90s and not at all clear. Sweet transvestite, From Transexual, Transylvania went the Rocky Horror song, it might have been written in 75 but I didn't even hear it til after I'd come out.
I wasn't aware that women were allowed to be happily single or financially independed either.
For quite a long time as a young child I assumed all boys wanted to be girls. I remember asking questions to my male friends to try and tease it out of them, but they never gave anything away. I thought this just meant they were better at keeping it secret than I was and resolved to try harder to make sure no-one ever found out.
As I got older then poof and bender became the insults of choice for any perceived sleight of masculinity. People were all too aware of lesbians and gays, but it was the worst possible thing to be. I worried I was gay and experimented as my sexuality developed and whilst it was okay that didnt seem to be what was 'wrong' with me. I'd kind of hoped it was because then at least I'd be a thing, and there'd be other people like me, even if we were hated. But the truth was I didn;t really want to be with a man, and I didn't want to be a man.
I heard about transvestites, from those little adverts that were in the Sports pages of the tabloids for a cross dressing shop in London. I found out about the Beaumont Society, which at the time was a support group for cross dressers, and looking back things like that were all quite comical. The main focus seemed to be to show they were men, and in particular straight men, who just had this hobby they indulged, but were actually manly men with beards and wives who played football and worked as lumberjacks. That didn;t really seem to fit me either. Occassionally the tabloids would run a piece about someone havng a sex change, it always seemed to be an RAF pilot for some reason or perhaps thats just how I rememeber it. But it was framed in such disparaging mocking terms that even though this seemed to be more inline with my experience I just couldn't conceive of a world where I could ever do that, it was such a long way from what I was supposed to be. I used to imagine, or hope I guess, I'd have some weird accident, where my genitals would be damaged and I might then be able to get away with asking for a sex change without the associated social stigma and rejection. As a teen I got into glam rock and punk, and set about looking as much like a girl as I could whilst simoutaneously getting in fights, getting shitfaced, fucking off my education and generally being a wrong un. In truth, as angry as I was, about all kinds of things, this was all a disguise. I did evetything I could to show I was a man, even though I looked very femme, but even that was draped in that whole rock and roll awful big hair thing that was going on where you could look like a girl but had to get into fights, and do loads of drugs and have loads of sex with women - something I really tried to do but couldn't, I mean physically couldn't, what I now know was gender dysphoria made it almost impossible. Even in longer term relationships, when I felt comfortable with someone it was very awkward and I'd do everything I could to avoid it which pretty much killed every relationship I ever had. I was deeply depressed throughout this period, I thought I'd never be able to be myself, I'd never have a proper relationship, and I started to drink pretty much every second I wasn't working developing an addiction I have never fully shaken off. The only answer, or so I thought, was too try and make this weird thing I had go away, or find a way to ignore it, or failing that just make sure no-one ever found out.
It wasn't until I was in my early 30s and I got the internet, that I was able to find out more about being trans and was able to talk to some trans people. By this time I'd accepted, at least to myself, that this was something that wasn't going to go away, although by then I had a young son and so once more resolved to keep it hidden at least until he was older, which he is now and which is why I've started to open up about it and ultimately do something about it.
Anyone I'm only posting this self indulgent spiel as an example of what the alternative is to providing acceptence and support for trans kids. It seems a lot of people would like this world to return. I truly feel sorry for any trans kids who are struggling to come out and understand themselves against a backdrop of trans women being accused of being misogynists, rapists and paedophiles across the internet. This is why I think the rise in referrals to the Tavistock is potentially a good thing, because it means a lot of children are not living lives of denial, shame and secrecy, they are being accepted and supported. I cant imagine how my life would have turned out had I been brought up being told it was okay to be trans and okay to experiment with gender, and that if I wanted to take things a bit further, at a very measured pace, then that would be okay too (if I met the diagnostic criteria of course). I can't say my entire life has been misery, it hasn't, as I got older gender dysphoria became more of a nagging discomfort than an existential crisis, but had I transitioned as a teenager, and been supported in that, I suspect my early life would not have been anywhere near as chaotic as it was.
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scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
I'm sorry for not coming back and responding sooner - I often post in flurries. Hands haven't been up to typing and I've mostly been sleeping for the last few days. So I'm not going to try to multiquote everything.
I do accept that trans children exist - most trans adults identified as trans as kids too - but I also accept that kids experiment with gender - and so do adults. Phases really do exist; a lot of adults, especially girls, who identify as CIS in the end also went through phases where they didn't when they were children, though not using that term obviously. What concerns me is organisations like Mermaids that don't seem - from their literature - to accept that as a possibility and they have an awful lot of influence in schools right now.
Do all of you liking Rob Ray's second post agree with everything he says in it? Because he says he's using "the actual numbers." What numbers does he think I was referring to? We're talking about the exact same numbers. He's claiming it's not a big increase and I think 4000% is, especially since it's not an isolated increase (it's been gradual over the years). But it's still the same numbers.
And the bit about it "not reflecting well on me." Well, that's nice.
Smokedout - there do seem to be clusters but apart from that study it's mostly anecdotal. Some of the clusters will be down the Tavistock being the only clinic that children are referred to, and that's going to be more difficult the further away you are from it (especially if you don't have the money to travel to London). The Tavistock, however, is just one clinic. GPs will be the first medical practitioners encountering children and teens presenting as trans (plus CAMHS) and I don't think there are any localised statistics on that.
Anecdotal evidence is not the same as statistics, but that doesn't mean it's entirely without value. For example, trans children wouldn't have been counted on any statistics not that many years ago, but does that mean no children then were experiencing gender dysphoria, temporarily or long-term? Obviously not.
I do accept that trans children exist - most trans adults identified as trans as kids too - but I also accept that kids experiment with gender - and so do adults. Phases really do exist; a lot of adults, especially girls, who identify as CIS in the end also went through phases where they didn't when they were children, though not using that term obviously. What concerns me is organisations like Mermaids that don't seem - from their literature - to accept that as a possibility and they have an awful lot of influence in schools right now.
Do all of you liking Rob Ray's second post agree with everything he says in it? Because he says he's using "the actual numbers." What numbers does he think I was referring to? We're talking about the exact same numbers.
He's claiming it's not a big increase and I think 4000% is, especially since it's not an isolated increase (it's been gradual over the years). But it's still the same numbers. And the bit about it "not reflecting well on me." Well, that's nice.
Smokedout - there do seem to be clusters but apart from that study it's mostly anecdotal. Some of the clusters will be down the Tavistock being the only clinic that children are referred to, and that's going to be more difficult the further away you are from it (especially if you don't have the money to travel to London). The Tavistock, however, is just one clinic. GPs will be the first medical practitioners encountering children and teens presenting as trans (plus CAMHS) and I don't think there are any localised statistics on that.
Anecdotal evidence is not the same as statistics, but that doesn't mean it's entirely without value. For example, trans children wouldn't have been counted on any statistics not that many years ago, but does that mean no children then were experiencing gender dysphoria, temporarily or long-term? Obviously not.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Sorry are you talking about post #1478 or #1489?Do all of you liking Rob Ray's second post agree with everything he says in it? Because he says he's using "the actual numbers." What numbers does he think I was referring to? We're talking about the exact same numbers.
Either way, my 'like' was on the statistical point. To talk about and increase of 4000+% when considering a base of 40 is poor practice. It is much better to express the increase in absolute terms, i.e. an increase to 1806 from 40.
Is that increase large, well as Rob Ray discussed, it depends on the context.
I've never seen anything from Mermaids that suggests it is not a possibility that gender variance can be a phase, quite the opposite in fact. I think one reason why people have concerns about Mermaids, is that Mermaids is a support group for trans children, and as such their training and materials are aimed at trans children and parents of trans children. It's not their role to diagnose children as trans, they take kids and their families at face value when they approach them as a family with a trans child. I don;t think it would really be appropriate for a support group to be continually interregating those they support over whether they are really trans, after all those kids are going to be questioned about that everwhere else they go. Mermaids are not medical or CAMS professionals, they are not there to make a diagnosis, they are there to provide support and to provide resources to parents and schools on supporting trans children. It doesn't seem that unreasonable to me that trans children should have a (very small) organisation that says okay, we accept you as trans and we will advocate for you and support you on that basis, although even that seems too much for a lot of people.
Do all of you liking Rob Ray's second post agree with everything he says in it? Because he says he's using "the actual numbers." What numbers does he think I was referring to? We're talking about the exact same numbers.
And the bit about it "not reflecting well on me." Well, that's nice.
It was the same numbers, I was a bit confused about that part of the post. The most recent figures have just come out by the way and the rise seems to be topping out. The number of referrals rose by only about 6% in 2018/19. That would fit with the theory that a key driver of this rise was people becoming more aware of the service they offer.
No, I don't think there's any local stats on that, but those kids are not having any treatment. It may well be that some kids experiment with a different gender identity to their birth sex, they may even sincerely believe they are trans for a while, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would really get through the pretty strict and very long lasting diagnosis period that it takes to get any clinical treatment if they weren't really trans. I also find it hard to believe that anyone who wasn't trans would continue with hormones once they started developing the secondary sexual characteristic of the opposite sex. If the Tavistock was getting it wrong you'd expect a lot more desisters by now, and according to them they don't have any from the group who have actually gone onto puberty blockers. And I know some people claim its the blockers themselves that 'trans' kids, but that doesn't seem very plausible to me when thousands of children have been given the exact same drugs for precocious puberty without turning transgender.
I think it's probably true that some girls who might once have identified as butch lesbians might not be calling themselves non binary, or gender fluid or whatever, and the same with young feminine gay men. I get that this might annoy the shit out of a lot of older LGBT people, it certainly pisses off a very vocal group of older transsexuals, but things change, a lot of young LGBT people identify more as queer now, and perhaps, in more tolerant times, such strict delineation doesn;t feel as important to the young er generation, although I remember a gay mag one of my ex's occassionally wrote for declaring in about 1999 that gay men were over and it's all about polysexuality now so this is not a new tension within LGBT circles.
What does worry me, and this isnt aimed at you scifi, is that whether they call themselves queer, non binary, gender fluid, or whatever other buzzwords they come up with, this kids will still face abuse and hostility for their sexuality and gender variance. I've posted before about how the more virulent aspects of the anti trans campaigns were likely to emerge as a broader anti-LGBT force and I think we're now getting a sense of what that will look like. Mumsnetters seem to have en masse decided that queer theory is all a paedophile plot and as such anyone who calls themselves queer is suspect. They've spent much of the last month or so attacking pride events for having fetishes on display and things that might disturb children. They are mobilising against drag and surrogacy, and their targets are increasingly high profile lesbians and gay men who do not share their views. And whilst they have some backing from some lesbian and gay people in this, it seems that homosexuality, a word that they are now insisting on using, is absolutely fine, but anything a bit kinky, anything queer, anything gender non conforming, anything trans, anything too visible, anything too promiscuous is now ripe for attack, and given a lot of young LGBT people fall into one or more of those areas then they strike me as highly vulnerable to a re-emergence of anti LGBT sentiment. Equally troubling is that many evangelicals and the conservative right seem to be able to live with this compromise and are backing them to the hilt.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Sorry to jump in with something slightly unrelated to the topic at hand but the Government are cutting funding for the National DV Helpline meaning it’ll close in October.
This is an enormous blow for women and hugely depressing when you consider it’s been going for 30 years. No more 24 hour, 365 days a year support.
I am so angry and upset. Fuck Theresa May so much she’s a massive fucking cunt.
This is an enormous blow for women and hugely depressing when you consider it’s been going for 30 years. No more 24 hour, 365 days a year support.
I am so angry and upset. Fuck Theresa May so much she’s a massive fucking cunt.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Fuck, that's appallingly crap.
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
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