Feminism - where are the threads?

[smokedout]

It was...but here we are watching the fallout of the same old cut and run in with stink bombs nonsense and wait for a reaction bullshit that we are all so familiar with.

Yes, JudithB has strong opinions that not everyone agrees with however she has been baited and and wound up over days and far too FEW people have said anything about that IMO. It's all too easy to come in and tell HER what she is doing wrong and expect her to conform to the warped personality culture and fear of long standing urban posters and their cheerleaders.

To be fair she came onto the trans thread and posted aoad of transphobic nonsense, called everyone stupid when it didn't go down that well and then came back here to try and pursue that agenda and demanded that trans people mustn't post on her thread in response. I realise she got some shit but she dished a fair bit out as well.

 

[spanglechick]

Nobody seems to have answered the OP’s question, which is terribly rude.

I’m not frightened of talking about feminist issues that relate specifically to cis/natal women. But not all of the subjugation of women is limited to natal women. None of the trans women I know have any kind of philosophical or practical issue with feminism being about female biology when relevant. I know those trans women exist, but I think they’re arseholes.

I’m also not willing to subjugate another oppressed group (trans people) where their oppression is greater than my own.

 

[Poot]

Nobody seems to have answered the OP’s question, which is terribly rude.

I’m not frightened of talking about feminist issues that relate specifically to cis/natal women. But not all of the subjugation of women is limited to natal women. None of the trans women I know have any kind of philosophical or practical issue with feminism being about female biology when relevant. I know those trans women exist, but I think they’re arseholes.

I’m also not willing to subjugate another oppressed group (trans people) where their oppression is greater than my own.

This is what I wanted to say but you have put it so much better than I could. I'm not fond of arguing with other feminists simply because I don't like confrontation irl and I rarely learn anything that way. There are feminists out there whose point of view on trans issues vary from mine but I am massively fond of them. You're never going to agree with everyone on everything and I'd rather enjoy their company.

The very last bit you wrote also chimes with me. I know trans people, I've seen their struggles and I'm sorry because this thread was good but if this is the road it's now taking then I'm not really interested anymore.

 

[kabbes]

The thread took this road because somebody simply wanted to talk abut feminist issues other than trans things but they were not allowed to do that. Instead, an individual heavily invested in trans thing apparently above all else just kept on pushing and pushing and pushing until the feminist snapped and lashed out in response.

Some might argue that little scene is the world in microcosm over the last five years.

 

[polly]

We've all been talking about other aspects of feminism for weeks, while she was away from the boards. Honestly it's like some of us have been reading a different thread.

 

[redsquirrel]

Actually, one more thing. Red Cat is always scrupulously fair and that deserves a mention.

Just wanted to say I totally agree with this. I've nearly always found Red Cat posts informative, on point and fair. Wish my posts were more like hers.

 

[kabbes]

We've all been talking about other aspects of feminism for weeks, while she was away from the boards. Honestly it's like some of us have been reading a different thread.

Weeks? Wow, aren’t we lucky to have weeks in which we’re allowed to discuss feminist things without making it about trans things.

 

[polly]

Weeks? Wow, aren’t we lucky to have weeks in which we’re allowed to discuss feminist things without making it about trans things.

Weeks is the amount of time judithb has been away from the boards. During which time we've been discussing feminist issues other than those around trans people. You know that was my point.

 

[Manter]

The reason I said what I said was because when there's been hostility to me and nobody said anything it feels really shit. It's like a bullying dynamic when there are silent bystanders, the bully expressing the aggression on behalf of the group and it makes me feel uncomfortable. I've pointed out plenty of times when I think someone is being treated unfairly, there's nothing special about this. Not sure why I bother though it must be said.

Don’t stop speaking out! It’s one of the characteristics I appreciate about you

 

[kabbes]

Weeks is the amount of time judithb has been away from the boards. During which time we've been discussing feminist issues other than those around trans people. You know that was my point.

And how do you suppose your point interfaced with my point that you were responding to?

If feminism discussions always end up with a “but what the trans!” response, there will be a kickback to that response. That’s not an accusation, it’s just an observation. It’s happened in this thread, just as it’s happened in so many other feminist spaces over the last 3-5 years. If people want to look for why there seems to be such anger in the whole subculture right now, they can do worse than to understand this contributory factor.

 

[polly]

And how do you suppose your point interfaced with my point that you were responding to?

I didn't quote you because it wasn't just your point that I was responding to. I am saying that we have managed to talk about many other aspects of feminism recently and I think we can continue to do that. There even discussions taking place right now on other feminist threads that have nothing to do with trans people. We (all of us) seem to have different takes on why last night was the shit show it was, so maybe we should move on and try to return to the mostly informative and interesting discussions we had when judithb wasn't posting.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The thread took this road because somebody simply wanted to talk abut feminist issues other than trans things but they were not allowed to do that. Instead, an individual heavily invested in trans thing apparently above all else just kept on pushing and pushing and pushing until the feminist snapped and lashed out in response.

Some might argue that little scene is the world in microcosm over the last five years.

Careful...you'll be accused of whinging soon...

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

Of course, I should just be nice

Fuck off

I started this thread and I repeat again, that if there wasn't a need for threads about the lived experiences of women recognised as philosophical discussions then there would not have been the spawning of threads on this site.

Females read this thread and felt energised. They are speaking in their dozens, tens of dozens.

Yes I am angry and the reasons for my anger should be debatable, but they aren't. And if I want to feel and express anger who are you to tell me to be quiet.

Hear me roar sweetheart and dont ever tell a woman to be be nice again

The thread is not about you or your opinions, even if you started it. It's not PM or a blog or your personal soap box, it's an open discussion. You are posing questions and positing discussion topics but you are not not leading the discussion in any sense. You're not even expanding on your own views so why should anybody take instruction from you on what to discuss here or how?

 

[Steel Icarus]

Not wishing to be an after-timer, but I was wondering from the start how long it would take for the mask to slip.

 

[mango5]

What on earth does that mean?

 

[Treacle Toes]

What on earth does that mean?

It means he is here to further put the boot in because 'he knew all along'

 

[Steel Icarus]

Further put the boot in? When did I put the boot in before?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Further put the boot in? When did I put the boot in before?

Further as additionally, not that you personally have before.

Also I don't think being GC isn't wearing a mask. I don't think JudithB was hiding her opinions at any point. Her posts here had a different focus.

 

[Steel Icarus]

There just seemed to have been a change from "feminists let's unite together" which has led to some enlightening and useful threads to telling people to fuck off (on a message board!) and using belittling language like sweetheart and champ.

 

[Pickman's model]

Is there any reason why you haven't challenged the hostility of, say, pengaleng or Pickman's in this or related threads?

perhaps you'd care to point to this hostility you claim to see from me on this thread, or pop over to the related threads and highlight it for me.

 

[Treacle Toes]

There just seemed to have been a change from "feminists let's unite together" which has led to some enlightening and useful threads to telling people to fuck off (on a message board!) and using belittling language like sweetheart and champ.

Oh yes, for certain there has been a change in tone and approach but I disagree that it represents a 'slip of a mask'. There is context and a direct relationship between how she was being baited IMO.

I'm not excusing shitty behaviour and lashing out btw, I just don't think it's as clear cut as some are making out and I'm not too scared to say so.

 

[Treacle Toes]

perhaps you'd care to point to this hostility you claim to see from on this thread, or pop over to the related threads and highlight it for me.

Oh come off it pickman's, you are a cheerleader of it... and no I won't waste my time quoting it and highlighting it. You know exactly what Santino means.

 

[Clair De Lune]

The thread took this road because somebody simply wanted to talk abut feminist issues other than trans things but they were not allowed to do that. Instead, an individual heavily invested in trans thing apparently above all else just kept on pushing and pushing and pushing until the feminist snapped and lashed out in response.

Some might argue that little scene is the world in microcosm over the last five years.

I agree with the bold bit. But I have a different perspective on the rest. To me at least it was clear that someone joining this forum with a nod towards the name of a gender theorist was going to have a lot of opinions about gender. So my comment about having been expecting her in the trans thread was due to that and a few snippets I'd read. She was on my radar...thought perhaps a troll tbh.

Some people are saying she was baited into joining that thread and maybe she was (I was unaware of the posts here before she joined that thread btw)but really nobody has to join in any threads they don't want to. Her posts on that thread made it damn clear of her stance. It was also clear she had not read the thread. It made me wonder if she is perhaps more used to mixing in gc accepting circles (mumsnet.. Twitter...a woman's place etc) She has certainly debated this stuff a lot
before somewhere. JudithB ? Don't like talking about you like you're not here. Please feel free to add your tuppence.

But that's by the by. The op doesn't own a thread and doesn't get to police who participates. We aren't mumsnet and people are allowed to disagree with gc views.

Nobody gets to tell us we're stupid or aren't feminists if we are trans inclusive. And because a lot of us are, it would go against all we believe if there was a trans women aren't welcome rule on feminist threads.

And that's the microcosm- some feminists want to police who gets to come to women's meetings and some don't. There will be no agreement on this. That much is obvious. Unfortunately the divide in opinion is massive which is why groups are splintering off into for and against lines.

Gc feminists do and can have trans free groups though. That's a fact. But not every women's group has to or wants to exclude trans women.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh come off it pickman's, you are a cheerleader of it... and no I won't waste my time quoting it and highlighting it. You know exactly what Santino means.

i didn't ask you to spend any of your time on it. your claim i'm cheerleading it? all the way from my last posts here on 3 may. you don't need to 'waste your time quoting it' because like me you know it doesn't exist.

 

[Treacle Toes]

i didn't ask you to spend any of your time on it. your claim i'm cheerleading it? all the way from my last posts here on 3 may. you don't need to 'waste your time quoting it' because like me you know it doesn't exist.

You know full well that I am referring to posts on other threads too, just like you were.

you claim to see from on this thread, or pop over to the related threads and highlight it for me.

But anyway, distance yourself as much as you like, hopefully that means you aren't proud of it at least.

 

[Pickman's model]

Rutita1 just so you don't have to waste any of your valuable time, here's all my posts from before today on this thread. maybe you could cast your eye over them for signs of hostility

The Abolition of Work

where i start from on the issue of work

You have to have something to start with, it's not, as you say, a practical how-to

yeh, i said it was a starting point. i thought that suggested it wasn't perfect or a blueprint but something to begin with.

yeh which is why i introduced the link as a starting point, where you (pl.) go with it, up to you.

also it would tend to place discussion in a sort of ghetto

To be fair he's rude to everyone without regard for their sex

Perhaps you could get 30 feet behind it or at least 30 feet from a computer or mobile

did you not offer your mum a cup of tea when you were making one for yourself?

it's not really tho is it. the great majority of men under feudalism or capitalism haven't and don't really get much chance to control or own what they want. yeh i'll grant you that of the beneficiaries of capitalism the majority are men. but i think it a superficial and facile comment to say 'the essence of being a man (as a gender expectation) is being entitled to control of own anything he desires'. gender expectations differ in time and place - not to mention in terms of power. it's like the nonsense that there's one unchanging human nature, on the surface attractive and plausible but it's like smoke as you try to grasp it, it slips away in a hundred different directions.

a subliminal message is girls cut themselves less frequently (16 plasters) than boys do (20 plasters)

yeh i bet they are

if capitalism and feudalism are natural consequences of the gender expectation of being a man as santino suggests, then it is perplexing that such systems have evolved in which so few men have the wherewithal to compel other men, and indeed women too, to their bidding. yeh, the question you raise is a good one - where does this expectation come from? i don't believe it is innate but rather culturally constructed. this doesn't mean that it is necessarily transient - it may be what the annales historians might have seen as a longue duree phenomenon, something which came into effect a very long time ago and has developed since then, perhaps emerging around the time people in the middle east stopped being nomads (this is just a suggestion and not an actual argument i'm proposing).

 

[Treacle Toes]

I agree with the bold bit. But I have a different perspective on the rest. To me at least it was clear that someone joining this forum with a nod towards the name of a gender theorist was going to have a lot of opinions about gender. So my comment about having been expecting her in the trans thread was due to that and a few snippets I'd read. She was on my radar...thought perhaps a troll tbh.

Some people are saying she was baited into joining that thread and maybe she was (I was unaware of the posts here before she joined that thread btw)but really nobody has to join in any threads they don't want to. Her posts on that thread made it damn clear of her stance. It was also clear she had not read the thread. It made me wonder if she is perhaps more used to mixing in gc accepting circles (mumsnet.. Twitter...a woman's place etc) She has certainly debated this stuff a lot
before somewhere. JudithB ? Don't like talking about you like you're not here. Please feel free to add your tuppence.

But that's by the by. The op doesn't own a thread and doesn't get to police who participates. We aren't mumsnet and people are allowed to disagree with gc views.

Nobody gets to tell us we're stupid or aren't feminists if we are trans inclusive. And because a lot of us are, it would go against all we believe if there was a trans women aren't welcome rule on feminist threads.

And that's the microcosm- some feminists want to police who gets to come to women's meetings and some don't. There will be no agreement on this. That much is obvious. Unfortunately the divide in opinion is massive which is why groups are splintering off into for and against lines.

Gc feminists do and can have trans free groups though. That's a fact. But not every women's group has to or wants to exclude trans women.

Good, reasoned post Clair De Lune

 

[Edie]

JudithB is cool, it’s nice to have a new woman along with fire and passion and new ideas and kick us all up the arse I have much enjoyed the feminist thread explosion.

Judith’s opinions about trans are her own, and she can hold them whilst also genuinely wanting to discuss a whole host and range of other frankly more important and pressing feminist issues.

The trans thing is a bit of a side show for me anyway, the unpaid labour and mental load and domestic powerlessness and femicide (2 women a week, may you rest in peace whilst I take your battle on), are the fucking issues for me. Fuck the trans issue.

Judith got baited by penaleng into the trans thread, then the super-weird penaleng/Pickmans bullying sideshow ground into action (with new added elbows). So much so fucking dull.

Personally I think it’s all good with respect to the feminist threads. Maybe Judith has had to accept that the threads aren’t ‘hers’ once they’re kicked off, but other than that let’s crack on with the feminist discussions

 

[Pickman's model]

You know full well that I am referring to posts on other threads too, just like you were.

i know full well you're on a sticky wicket with this one. perhaps Santino will pop by and help you out.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

JudithB is cool, it’s nice to have a new woman along with fire and passion and new ideas and kick us all up the arse I have much enjoyed the feminist thread explosion.

Judith’s opinions about trans are her own, and she can hold them whilst also genuinely wanting to discuss a whole host and range of other frankly more important and pressing feminist issues.

The trans thing is a bit of a side show for me anyway, the unpaid labour and mental load and domestic powerlessness and femicide (2 women a week, may you rest in peace whilst I take your battle on), are the fucking issues for me. Fuck the trans issue.

Judith got baited by penaleng into the trans thread, then the super-weird penaleng/Pickmans bullying sideshow ground into action (with new added elbows). So much so fucking dull.

Personally I think it’s all good with respect to the feminist threads. Maybe Judith has had to accept that the threads aren’t ‘hers’ once they’re kicked off, but other than that let’s crack on with the feminist discussions

Well said Edie. Can't we all ignore the silly sniping of Pengaleng?