Feminism - where are the threads?

[friendofdorothy]

Yeah, I learned a while ago (although I don't always pay attention) that the discomfort is often a sign you should be interrogating something more thoroughly rather than looking away.

My partner's recent serious illness has highlighted how much I normally rely on her for emotional support - and of course the few friends I have spoken to in her absence are all women. How do you start creating emotionally connected relationships with other men at 41 though? Or how do you change long-standing friendships which rotate around conversations about music and arguments about politics into something more rounded and nourishing?

(apols if this turns the thread into one about MEN/ME, but I guess the flipside of how to tackle our over-reliance on women's emotional labour is how to help men take on some of the burden...)

I like your honesty.

I still say it would be worth starting your own thread on this. I'd love to hear men what men have to say on this.

 

[killer b]

Perhaps - although the thing about stuff like that is that it feels a hell of a lot easier and less exposing to talk about it on ongoing threads than starting a whole new one. I don't have the capacity atm for various reasons, so while I understand it's not quite appropriate for this one I'm not going to start another right now.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I had 2 younger female family members staying over, and we had one of those heart to heart conversations about feminism. It was truly depressing - they have to put up with exactly the same shit from random men I had to put up 30 years ago.

One who is a MSc student has been told a lab is no place for a 'girl'
The other was grabbed in a sexual way while she was working filming in a club.
They have both encountered everday sexism of men commenting on their appearance in unwelcome/inappropriate ways, especially when exercising.

depressing.

oh and they have been told to 'cheer up love too'

 

[trashpony]

I had 2 younger female family members staying over, and we had one of those heart to heart conversations about feminism. It was truly depressing - they have to put up with exactly the same shit from random men I had to put up 30 years ago.

One who is a MSc student has been told a lab is no place for a 'girl'
The other was grabbed in a sexual way while she was working filming in a club.
They have both encountered everday sexism of men commenting on their appearance in unwelcome/inappropriate ways, especially when exercising.

depressing.

oh and they have been told to 'cheer up love too'

It never fucking stops. Nothing has changed for the better for women since I was young. There's a bit of fiddling while Rome burns stuff but that's about the sum of it. Gender pay gap! Isn't it awful. Things continue. Me Too movement! Men increasingly raping and killing women in sex games 'gone wrong' defences. Things continue. Gender expectations are really harmful for women and men! The proliferation of Princess t-shirts is joined by Strong little man ones.

Etc

 

[kabbes]

The whole movement seemed to stall right about the time the marketing gurus convinced the world that the Spice Girls somehow represented the epitome of feminism. I would say that was the moment capitalism really worked out how to monetise feminism directly, rather than just hijack it as a way to double the workforce. It’s been two steps forward, two steps back since that point.

 

[Manter]

Okay, so what is it that you feel that y’all need in order to develop better healthier friendships with your mates?

What’s getting in the way of open honest emotional exchanges with your men friends?

In what ways is it difficult to start new friendships?

What would you like your friendships with men to be like?

This is really interesting. TN has a load of friends from primary school. He used to see them all a couple of times a week because they were all Hull boys living in London. Then weddings, babies, loads moved out of London.... and now he will say he has no friends. Because he doesn’t know how to maintain relationships that aren’t face to face at the football every week, I guess.

But what he will then do is say to me that he ‘needs me’ to help him with emotional stuff. Which I sometimes do because we are in a long term relationship, but sometimes I just don’t have the emotional energy to take on one more person’s shit. But I won’t say ‘not my circus, not my monkey’ and instead do that ego dance spanglechick describes.

(Worth saying he would never ever ever be violent to me- but his anger can still be intimidating. He’s over 6ft, shoulders half as wide again as mine... I don’t know that many men know how much their physicality can intimidate)

 

[Manter]

There's an aside here too... The constant battle women face to be heard, and to not to be dismissed, nor their feelings of distress 'splained away or taken as an attack on the men who hold power over us has some very serious consequences.

The distress women face (and is sometimes/often caused by men - my cptsd certainly was) feeds all the way back into how they are treated when it comes to mental health and psychiatry (often at the hands of men).

This tweet popped into my feed the other day (massive content warning for suicide, overdosing, and psychiatric abuse)

Read it and weep about how women are "treated".



The worst medical treatment I've had is psychiatric treatment at the hands of men (the psychiatric field is particularly negligent of women) and some of the best treatment I had was with clinical psychologists (all female).

And this is out of all medical treatment (not just mental health).

Problem with that inquest thread is that a lot of what he says is true. There can also be power imbalance, potentially poor practice, etc etc- but if someone is coming in more than 10x a year claiming to have overdosed, absconds without treatment but suffers no ill effect, it isn’t sexist to note there is something else going on. And it says they always attempted to treat what she said had happened before she absconded.

 

[killer b]

This is really interesting. TN has a load of friends from primary school. He used to see them all a couple of times a week because they were all Hull boys living in London. Then weddings, babies, loads moved out of London.... and now he will say he has no friends. Because he doesn’t know how to maintain relationships that aren’t face to face at the football every week, I guess.

But what he will then do is say to me that he ‘needs me’ to help him with emotional stuff. Which I sometimes do because we are in a long term relationship, but sometimes I just don’t have the emotional energy to take on one more person’s shit. But I won’t say ‘not my circus, not my monkey’ and instead do that ego dance spanglechick describes.

(Worth saying he would never ever ever be violent to me- but his anger can still be intimidating. He’s over 6ft, shoulders half as wide again as mine... I don’t know that many men know how much their physicality can intimidate)

I hesitate to call it laziness, although it must look like that from the outside. But for the most part I think it is a case of the path of least resistance being followed. Remove the easy option - to lean on you - and sure enough he'd find the wherewithal to make connections elsewhere (or possibly immediately rebound onto another woman...).

IME friendships are formed and maintained out of convenience or necessity, and once you're out of your 20s and all your peers (and you) are busy with families and the like, convenience drops away - so it's often only under the pressure of no longer having the convenient crutch of a romantic partner doing the emotional heavy lifting for you that we look elsewhere.

 

[Manter]

I hesitate to call it laziness, although it must look like that from the outside. But for the most part I think it is a case of the path of least resistance being followed. Remove the easy option - to lean on you - and sure enough he'd find the wherewithal to make connections elsewhere (or possibly immediately rebound onto another woman...).

IME friendships are formed and maintained out of convenience or necessity, and once you're out of your 20s and all your peers (and you) are busy with families and the like, convenience drops away - so it's often only under the pressure of no longer having the convenient crutch of a romantic partner doing the emotional heavy lifting for you that we look elsewhere.

I also wonder (this is a semi formed thought, may be bollocks) whether straight men with ‘traditional’ backgrounds lean on female partners because maternal love is a formative care relationship; then boys are taught by society to shut emotions away. So the link to emotional care remains mothers, significant women.... dunno

 

[killer b]

I also wonder (this is a semi formed thought, may be bollocks) whether straight men with ‘traditional’ backgrounds lean on female partners because maternal love is a formative care relationship; then boys are taught by society to shut emotions away. So the link to emotional care remains mothers, significant women.... dunno

I'm sure that's part of it. Also I wonder if the reason women feel an ongoing necessity to maintain friendships outside of their romantic partnerships is because they aren't able to rely on their romantic partners in the same way their romantic partners rely on them?

 

[Santino]

Maintaining a friendship when it's inconvenient to do so usually requires demonstrating that you care about someone else, even if only through the effort it takes. And men are taught not to allow themselves to look like they care about other men.

 

[Winot]

I’ve hesitated to post in this subject because it sounds a bit ‘I’m all right Jack’ but I have made a number of close male friends since my kids were born that I met solely as a result of having kids. And that the trials and tribulations (and joy) of parenthood has been a binding force in the friendships.

 

[Santino]

I’ve hesitated to post in this subject because it sounds a bit ‘I’m all right Jack’ but I have made a number of close male friends since my kids were born that I met solely as a result of having kids. And that the trials and tribulations (and joy) of parenthood has been a binding force in the friendships.

#notallmen

 

[Winot]

#notallmen

Another perspective. Sorry if it doesn’t meet with your approval

 

[Manter]

Maintaining a friendship when it's inconvenient to do so usually requires demonstrating that you care about someone else, even if only through the effort it takes. And men are taught not to allow themselves to look like they care about other men.

I’m not sure that’s true to lots of men. It’s just what that care looks like. The vulnerability bit of it maybe.

TN has a friend with quite severe depression and issues with his kids and ex wife; one who has a neuro disorder that will kill him slowly at some point in the next decade or so. I know he cares deeply, he discusses what to do to be supportive with me, at length. That support mostly looks like going to the pub or a football match and saying ‘alright mate’ and then offering extended sporting analogies for coping strategies. It’s quite funny and in some ways quite sweet, and there is quite clearly care there.... but it’s not as, dunno, honest and vulnerable as you may see in female friendships.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This is really interesting. TN has a load of friends from primary school. He used to see them all a couple of times a week because they were all Hull boys living in London. Then weddings, babies, loads moved out of London.... and now he will say he has no friends. Because he doesn’t know how to maintain relationships that aren’t face to face at the football every week, I guess.

But what he will then do is say to me that he ‘needs me’ to help him with emotional stuff. Which I sometimes do because we are in a long term relationship, but sometimes I just don’t have the emotional energy to take on one more person’s shit. But I won’t say ‘not my circus, not my monkey’ and instead do that ego dance spanglechick describes.

(Worth saying he would never ever ever be violent to me- but his anger can still be intimidating. He’s over 6ft, shoulders half as wide again as mine... I don’t know that many men know how much their physicality can intimidate)

The sad thing - to me - is it's not difficult to educate boys into honest emotional labour. My Mum taught my brothers and me to NOT go the "pat on the shoulder is the limit of emotional display" route through example, and through pointing up the problems of bottling stuff up. Her score was 2 out of 3 (older brother is an aggressive wanker who cheated on and stole from his ex-wife). Given that my Dad, until his late 50s, was an emotional void, I can only (and do) praise her.
Mum taught my sister to be well, frankly, wonderful (she's just completed a degree as she's reached her half century). My sister swears like a trooper, but also constantly - and deliberately gives out a vibe that has meant that in 31 years of child-rearing, she's never had to physically strike any of her 7 kids. The only thing they fear is disappointing Mum! They're all emotionally open, because my sister taught them that sharing problems gets them dealt with. I love going to visit her, not least because the kids (5 of whom are now adult) all come and give me a hug, ask how I am, and genuinely mean it. The first time I visited after Ann passed, I spent a lot of time enveloped in hugs while in conversation, because their way of expressing emotion is through physical contact and talking.

I think that maybe I was lucky to be raised the way I was. Some stuff was still very much a product of its time, but I was never frightened to show any emotion except anger, and that was because I had an uncontrollable temper as a child, so I held onto anger until I could let it out harmlessly, at least until I saw a child psych who helped me find coping mechanisms.

It's interesting what you say about physicality. My Mum always said that we should stand about 2 arms-lengths from a woman we were talking to, unless they moved closer, because that was the polite thing to do. I hadn't realised until now, what she'd actually done was to try to minimise the sense of threat women might feel (as you know, I'm about 5'10", but both my brothers are well over 6'. Older is 6'3", younger is 6'4") from us

 

[ViolentPanda]

I’m not sure that’s true to lots of men. It’s just what that care looks like. The vulnerability bit of it maybe.

TN has a friend with quite severe depression and issues with his kids and ex wife; one who has a neuro disorder that will kill him slowly at some point in the next decade or so. I know he cares deeply, he discusses what to do to be supportive with me, at length. That support mostly looks like going to the pub or a football match and saying ‘alright mate’ and then offering extended sporting analogies for coping strategies. It’s quite funny and in some ways quite sweet, and there is quite clearly care there.... but it’s not as, dunno, honest and vulnerable as you may see in female friendships.

Not helped by the fact that most media representations of male "closeness" tend to rely on exactly those stereotypes, for as long as I can remember. Emotional honesty and vulnerability - except in extremis - are edited out of the male "experience" in visual media. A media studies paper I read years ago argued that once audio and then visual media were available, they were very good tools to keep women and men in their gender boxes, and to program people for certain roles. We - as western human beings - may be wiser to the ways of the media, but we're still programmed through it.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Is this thread public? Who can see it?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Is this thread public? Who can see it?

I think so yes. This isn't a private/members forum like others that require a post count is it?

 

[Steel Icarus]

I think so yes. This isn't a private/members forum like others that require a post count is it?

I thought Politics was open to all, even non-members, and this is lumped in with that

 

[Steel Icarus]

Still deliberating whether to post or not but I deffo won't be doing on a public thread.

 

[Winot]

I’m in Boston and saw this and thought of this thread.

 

[Edie]

I thought Politics was open to all, even non-members, and this is lumped in with that

That’s a shame I’d like to hear your pov

 

[TopCat]

I’ve hesitated to post in this subject because it sounds a bit ‘I’m all right Jack’ but I have made a number of close male friends since my kids were born that I met solely as a result of having kids. And that the trials and tribulations (and joy) of parenthood has been a binding force in the friendships.

Yeah this resonates. I have life long friendships and some made in recent years. We talk about deep emotional issues all the time, never talk about football or TV or any shallow crap.
These friendships are always there. They sustain me and remind me never to be too over reliant of GF's or even the relationships with my son and daughter.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Still deliberating whether to post or not but I deffo won't be doing on a public thread.

Why dont we start one in community then, on what theme did you have in mind?

 

[JudithB]

Hello. I have been on holiday. It looks like I have quite a bit of reading to do, to catch up on the thread.

 

[mango5]

Hopefully you will also have to read a bundle of spin–off threads for men's responses to this and other related topics, eg ’default man’

 

[weepiper]

Hello. I have been on holiday. It looks like I have quite a bit of reading to do, to catch up on the thread.

I'm glad you're back! I wondered if U75 had scared you off

 

[JudithB]

Hopefully you will also have to read a bundle of spin–off threads for men's responses to this and other related topics, eg ’default man’

I've just had to do a Scout drop off/Beaver pick up so will spend until Scout pick up, catching up

 

[friendofdorothy]

Hello. I have been on holiday. It looks like I have quite a bit of reading to do, to catch up on the thread.

glad you are back - you have given me a good excuse to start to start spin off threads. Amazingly they haven't all descended into shit, yet.