Feminism - where are the threads?

[SheilaNaGig]

I thought this was an interesting Twitter thread. Certainly very familiar to my experience.

Nagging is more work... Yes!

I hate this.

Please would you do this thing that needs doing every week anyway, that I usually do, but I’d really like it if it became your chore rather than mine, or just can we share the chore.

Okay, sure.

Please would you do it then?

I was just going to.

Okay, but when? Because I asked you three days ago.

Just remind me and I’ll do it.

I’m reminding you. Please do it!

Stop nagging me, I was going to do it!

But why can’t you just do it without me having to ask you?

What’s the issue? Just ask me and I’ll do it!

But I don’t want to have to ask you to do it! We both use it, so why is it my responsibility?

It’s not you’re responsibility though, you’ve taken responsibility for it! Just leave it and I’ll do it!

But you don’t do it, unless I ask you to do it!

So what’s the problem? If I do it when you ask me, why are you getting all in a tizzy about it?

Because A I don’t want to have to ask you every single time, I want you to just do it without being asked, and B I hate that I’m forced to nag you when I do ask!

I’m not forcing you to nag me, you just nag me anyway!

Aargh!

Calm down.....

Don’t fucking tell me to calm down!

 

[Manter]

Nagging is more work... Yes!

I hate this.

Please would you do this thing that needs doing every week anyway, that I usually do, but I’d really like it if it became your chore rather than mine, or just can we share the chore.

Okay, sure.

Please would you do it then?

I was just going to.

Okay, but when? Because I asked you three days ago.

Just remind me and I’ll do it.

I’m reminding you. Please do it!

Stop nagging me, I was going to do it!

But why can’t you just do it without me having to ask you?

What’s the issue? Just ask me and I’ll do it!

But I don’t want to have to ask you to do it! We both use it, so why is it my responsibility?

It’s not you’re responsibility though, you’ve taken responsibility for it! Just leave it and I’ll do it!

But you don’t do it, unless I ask you to do it!

So what’s the problem? If I do it when you ask me, why are you getting all in a tizzy about it?

Because A I don’t want to have to ask you every single time, I want you to just do it without being asked, and B I hate that I’m forced to nag you when I do ask!

I’m not forcing you to nag me, you just nag me anyway!

Aargh!

Calm down.....

Don’t fucking tell me to calm down!

Oh god yes all of this.

 

[Edie]

Three things I’m really fucking glad of. I’ll never live with a man and have to do his housework again (cos I could never be fucked with nagging by and large I just did it), I’ll never have to go out to bars/clubs and experience that absolute bollox hounding of drunk men who don’t know when to stop coming on to you, and (touch wood) I’ll never be afraid in my own home again. Fuck. All. That. Shit.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Three things I’m really fucking glad of. I’ll never live with a man and have to do his housework again (cos I could never be fucked with nagging by and large I just did it), I’ll never have to go out to bars/clubs and experience that absolute bollox hounding of drunk men who don’t know when to stop coming on to you, and (touch wood) I’ll never be afraid in my own home again. Fuck. All. That. Shit.

Yep.

I’ve also decided that I’ll never ever share a front door with a man again. Ever. It’s just not worth it.

Like you, I usually ended up just doing the chores myself, it felt like far less work than trying to negotiate him into pulling his weight.

Just recently, I just fucked it off for a few days so the kitchen looked like a student common room and he actually said “What’s going on? Are you on strike or something?”

And when he *does* do any of it, he virtue signals like he’s in the Big Top, hoovering around my feet while I’m trying to write, offering to mop my room when I’m napping, and (much more subtle, this one) leaving all the cleaning materials on display so I know he’s done some cleaning and then I have to clear up after him doing the cleaning.

And of course the announcements “I’m going to do it.... I’m doing it.... I did it..... Remember when I did it?...”. Whaddyawant, a medal? I do this shit every single week, year in year out, without comment, whilst doing all my other stuff too.




Okay, so what can we actually do to change this?

Apart from vowing never to live with a man again, I mean.




Standard disclaimer not all men not all women etc.

trashpony I know you said “please take it as read that the usual disclaimers apply” but maybe we need an acronym or symbol to indicate it.

NAMNAW

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Three things I’m really fucking glad of. I’ll never live with a man and have to do his housework again (cos I could never be fucked with nagging by and large I just did it), I’ll never have to go out to bars/clubs and experience that absolute bollox hounding of drunk men who don’t know when to stop coming on to you, and (touch wood) I’ll never be afraid in my own home again. Fuck. All. That. Shit.

Being afraid in my own home. That is a terrible thing.

I was on the phone to the cops, they’d called to say they were about to release him without charge. I’d been so happy, so relaxed, since they arrested him and at that moment, alone in an empty house, when they said they were about to release him, I ran and hid in a closet, in an empty house. The fear was so huge and so complete that I had to hide in an empty house, in my own home.

I never ever want to experience that again,

 

[trashpony]

I do feel hugely liberated at choosing not to live with a man again. Well apart from my beautiful son [emoji3590]It’s not just about men tbh, I don’t want to live with anyone. This is my house. I don’t have to negotiate with anyone.

I have never been afraid of coming home physically but I’ve felt the dread of being in an emotionally abusive relationship. Just never want to be in that position ever again

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

Reading all these experiences I feel like I lucked out.

My dad was an absolute fucking cunt and left me with a whole heap of mental health problems leading to a lifetime of on-off antidepressants.

My husband is a wonder (although ocassinally we nag each other).

My dad is still a cunt.


Right now, aim doing the emotional labour for my mum "WHY DO YOU LET HOIM TREAT YOU LIKE THAT?" as well as my own damage "why did your parants treat you like that?"

I'm 36 years old.




Women suffer.....

 

[spanglechick]

One of my upper sixth came to see me last week because she and her boyfriend kept blowing up about him worrying about her too much and her wanting to put down some boundaries. And as I was explaining all these ways of being heard, this “man whispering” that we all need to do in order to outfox men’s instinctive reaction to feel offended and shut down or get shouty, I said to her that I felt like a bad feminist, because she *should* be able to say “I don’t need looking after like you think I do. I was capable before we met.” and just be heard.

But sometimes it’s undeniably expedient to find a different way of delivering the message. A way that doesn’t challenge his ego. I know I find it useful. Interestingly, also in the office was a male colleague who said afterwards that he didn’t think it was a bad thing, that he recognises that women have these better communication skills (namnaw) and he’s grateful when his partner has used them on him.

Because of course he is. Because he doesn’t have to learn or change himself.

 

[scifisam]

One of my upper sixth came to see me last week because she and her boyfriend kept blowing up about him worrying about her too much and her wanting to put down some boundaries. And as I was explaining all these ways of being heard, this “man whispering” that we all need to do in order to outfox men’s instinctive reaction to feel offended and shut down or get shouty, I said to her that I felt like a bad feminist, because she *should* be able to say “I don’t need looking after like you think I do. I was capable before we met.” and just be heard.

But sometimes it’s undeniably expedient to find a different way of delivering the message. A way that doesn’t challenge his ego. I know I find it useful. Interestingly, also in the office was a male colleague who said afterwards that he didn’t think it was a bad thing, that he recognises that women have these better communication skills (namnaw) and he’s grateful when his partner has used them on him.

Because of course he is. Because he doesn’t have to learn or change himself.

They're so lucky to have you.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

One of my upper sixth came to see me last week because she and her boyfriend kept blowing up about him worrying about her too much and her wanting to put down some boundaries. And as I was explaining all these ways of being heard, this “man whispering” that we all need to do in order to outfox men’s instinctive reaction to feel offended and shut down or get shouty, I said to her that I felt like a bad feminist, because she *should* be able to say “I don’t need looking after like you think I do. I was capable before we met.” and just be heard.

But sometimes it’s undeniably expedient to find a different way of delivering the message. A way that doesn’t challenge his ego. I know I find it useful. Interestingly, also in the office was a male colleague who said afterwards that he didn’t think it was a bad thing, that he recognises that women have these better communication skills (namnaw) and he’s grateful when his partner has used them on him.

Because of course he is. Because he doesn’t have to learn or change himself.

Oh ffs!

I was going to make a post similar to this myself tbh.

You’ve said everything I would have said.

I’d add, though, that this fragility is yet another way to keep us silent and, I suppose, in our place, compliant with his wishes to be left alone to keep on doing it his way.

Like that thing when they can’t do the washing/hoovering/shopping etc. as well as you can so you end up either doing it anyway, or supervising it (more nagging), or picking up the dropped stitches afterwards (interfering) . When it comes to doing stuff they want to do, they’re perfectly capable. It’s infuriating. And they claim not to be manipulative.

One of my favourite ridiculous stories is about a young man who would stay in my house for extended periods of time when things were rough elsewhere, rent free. The arrangement was that he could have the spare room when he needed it and treat it as his own, but he had to leave it properly clean so I could use it as a guest room in his absence. Ha! Of course he’d just shove all his muck under the bed and into the closet etc. The one time he did the hoovering in there, he had the brilliant idea that, in order to ensure that he would make the effort the next time, he’d hide the Hoover in his room, so he’d not have to drag it up the stairs in future. The mystery of the disappearing Hoover was only solved when he next came to visit.

Because, you see, he’d no notion that the housework was actually done by human intervention in the rest of the house.

Oh! A lodger who eventually moved out and later admitted that it wasn’t til he was in his own place that he realised that someone had actually been providing loo paper, salt, bin liners, cleaning products....

I must add that none * of the women who lived in my house behaved in this way, and almost all the men did. The ones that didn’t had stories of sisters, previous girlfriends or indeed their mothers who had taught them the essentials.

* correction: there was one.

The thing is though that my sisters and I were dragged up and neglected, we weren’t taught or trained. We had chores and responsibilities, which we hated and rebelled against, but we weren’t taught to cook sew clean mop floors fold laundry handle the housekeeping budget etc. and yet we’ve ended up as good housekeepers.

How is it that women learn and men don’t?

namnaw...





I must say it’s good to get this off the chest and share stories but it doesn’t get us anywhere!


Why are there these differences and how can we change the status quo?



ETA I’ve found that men who’ve been in prison or the army are much better at keeping house and so forth.

 

[trashpony]

Judge gives man who punched and bit his girlfriend suspended sentence and tells him “mind how you go”

I guess the judge thinks that Stacey Booth should brush up on her man whispering technique

Judge tells boyfriend convicted of coercive control there are 'plenty more fish in the sea'

 

[Edie]

Judge gives man who punched and bit his girlfriend suspended sentence and tells him “mind how you go”

I guess the judge thinks that Stacey Booth should brush up on her man whispering technique

Judge tells boyfriend convicted of coercive control there are 'plenty more fish in the sea'

Absolutely 100% why it’s not worth going to the police. I can’t imagine the burden of proof she and the police must of needed to get that cunt to admit that he bit her on the arm when she saw her family, or sleep deprived her to conduct his paranoid interrogations, or bent her fingers back as punishment.

You can almost hear the judges paternalistic approval of a young man turning his life around under his guidance, mistakes made for sure, but a brighter future ahead. And the woman? Completely irrelevant. I’d like words with both the boyfriend and the judge in this case. They need some sense talking into them.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I've given up "man whispering". It's too exhausting constantly trying to work out how to say things without bruising his ego or offending him. Now I just say what I want. I've had a few sulks and hurt looks, but I'm past caring.

 

[campanula]

Grief, I have lived in decent safety for so many years, it is (almost) possible to forget that this sort of shit goes on. Where do we start? I know that most of the abusive behaviour happened in the first 16 years of my life (a catalogue of sexual bullying and ferocious beatings) that when it came down to my adult autonomy, I wasn't even slightly afraid of anything dished out by a non-family member (because I was free of the years of childish vulnerability and nothing, short of being repeatedly raped or battered into a coma could possibly be worse than what I had already survived. My own instincts, to fail to flinch away and even get the fists in first, saved me from the sort of daily, commonplace abuse I saw while working for Women's Aid...because fear is the trigger...and it can go any way...and grows like a tumour.
Anyway, I have been with the same man for over 35 years now, with no corrosive rages, violence or distress for at least the last 25 years (but eyes have been blacked and weapons raised in the past). I also know, with every fibre of my being, that my boys, now men grown, have never, ever raised a hand in anger against a smaller, weaker being - although my walls and doors bear witness to tumultuous adolescent anger... fury inflicted on an inanimate object rather than vulnerable flesh and bones.
So yep, I think 'man whispering' is both needed and valid...and should be part of our arsenal and power rather than some conciliatory giving in. Like any struggle, nothing will be freely given - it must be taken by whatever means are at our disposal.

My sister cycles from one abusive relationship to another and cannot seem to break the circle. She will drop her eyes and flinch, even when no violence is intended because the fear is so deeply impressed. Men who had not been violent or controlling at first, seemed to be under a self-prophesying spell, almost invariably falling in with her expectations. This is a difficult pattern to disrupt...but we must, to save ourselves, even if fleeing is the only solution. There are more people choosing to remain single than at any time in history...at least in the UK. Also, it is noticeable than married men live longer than single ones...while married women do worse than single women, dying earlier...so the benefits of partnering are really unequal.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Being afraid in my own home. That is a terrible thing.

I was on the phone to the cops, they’d called to say they were about to release him without charge. I’d been so happy, so relaxed, since they arrested him and at that moment, alone in an empty house, when they said they were about to release him, I ran and hid in a closet, in an empty house. The fear was so huge and so complete that I had to hide in an empty house, in my own home.

I never ever want to experience that again,

I'm sorry to hear this, but I thank you for being brave enough to write it.

There are far too many male posters who think because they might be decent enough personally that all men are. Fear of male violence at the hands of those we know, as well as strangers in the street, never leaves most women.

I've suffered violence at the hands of a woman, but at least we were a similar build so I could defend myself.

NAMNAW of course.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I've given up "man whispering". It's too exhausting constantly trying to work out how to say things without bruising his ego or offending him. Now I just say what I want. I've had a few sulks and hurt looks, but I'm past caring.

Being a lesbian I've never quite honed those man whispering skills - soothing male egos isn't something I have to do very often. Probably why I don't think twice about being insulting about beards, ha ha.

Being older helps too - I can be that rude old woman now, which is more fun.

 

[spanglechick]

I'm sorry to hear this, but I thank you for being brave enough to write it.

There are far too many male posters who think because they might be decent enough personally that all men are. Fear of male violence at the hands of those we know, as well as strangers in the street, never leaves most women.

I've suffered violence at the hands of a woman, but at least we were a similar build so I could defend myself.

NAMNAW of course.

One of the things I keep coming back to is knowing that a proportion of the men I know and like and trust, a significant minority of these men have harassed, assaulted, abused women.

They may have cussed out a woman who turned them down / date raped their college girlfriend / grabbed someone’s tit on a lads’ night out / leered at schoolgirls out of a car window... mathematically it’s got to be somewhere above ten percent of men. If every woman has a raft of #metoo stories, it can’t plausibly be less than that.

And I don’t know what the answer is because I know why they’re keeping quiet. If I were them I would do too...

But it leaves us knowing that our fear of “some men” includes those men who are sending us a different story. And because of that silence, society gets to pretend that these men are rare aberrations. Men get to pretend that their friend who was acquitted of rape was innocent. That the men who hurt women aren’t their friends and family.

The whole lie makes me feel physically sick.

 

[Sweet FA]

A lot of hard truths on the last few pages; I've never been physically violent to a woman but I'll put my hand up to some of those behaviours outlined by SheilaNaGig about household jobs (parts of that conversation though ). I've read posts by Poot, weepiper, spanglechick and others on this and other threads re: roles within relationships; the unfair division of labour; living with depressed/uncommunicative/angry men; the effects on marriages & children & I recognise myself in some of it.

Many men don't recognise their violence as violence: physical presence, tone, volume, slamming doors, punching walls, calling a woman a cunt in the middle of an otherwise fairly non-confrontational thread.

 

[friendofdorothy]

They may have cussed out a woman who turned them down / date raped their college girlfriend / grabbed someone’s tit on a lads’ night out / leered at schoolgirls out of a car window... mathematically it’s got to be somewhere above ten percent of men. If every woman has a raft of #metoo stories, it can’t plausibly be less than that.

And I don’t know what the answer is because I know why they’re keeping quiet. If I were them I would do too...

But it leaves us knowing that our fear of “some men” includes those men who are sending us a different story. And because of that silence, society gets to pretend that these men are rare aberrations. Men get to pretend that their friend who was acquitted of rape was innocent. That the men who hurt women aren’t their friends and family.

The whole lie makes me feel physically sick.

So often said of serial killers - he seemed so ordinary, so polite, so nice, so good to his mother... how can you tell?

NAMNA mothers etc

 

[friendofdorothy]

A lot of hard truths on the last few pages; I've never been physically violent to a woman but I'll put my hand up to some of those behaviours outlined by SheilaNaGig about household jobs (that conversation though ). I've read posts by Poot, weepiper, spanglechick and others on this and other threads re: roles within relationships; the unfair division of labour; living with depressed/uncommunicative/angry men; the effects on marriages & children & I recognise myself in some of it.

Many men don't recognise their violence as violence: physical presence, tone, volume, slamming doors, punching walls, calling a woman a cunt in the middle of an otherwise fairly non-confrontational thread.

thanks for being honest.

 

[scifisam]

I'm sorry to hear this, but I thank you for being brave enough to write it.

There are far too many male posters who think because they might be decent enough personally that all men are. Fear of male violence at the hands of those we know, as well as strangers in the street, never leaves most women.

I've suffered violence at the hands of a woman, but at least we were a similar build so I could defend myself.

NAMNAW of course.

Yes, I was once sexually assaulted by a woman but it wasn't as scary because I was more capable of fighting her off. Also despite being out for twenty years that only happened once, whereas sexual assaults by men have happened to me on a far more regular basis, a couple of times on the tube when literally doing nothing other than standing there.

 

[friendofdorothy]

liked in sympathy.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

One of the things I keep coming back to is knowing that a proportion of the men I know and like and trust, a significant minority of these men have harassed, assaulted, abused women.

They may have cussed out a woman who turned them down / date raped their college girlfriend / grabbed someone’s tit on a lads’ night out / leered at schoolgirls out of a car window... mathematically it’s got to be somewhere above ten percent of men. If every woman has a raft of #metoo stories, it can’t plausibly be less than that.

And I don’t know what the answer is because I know why they’re keeping quiet. If I were them I would do too...

But it leaves us knowing that our fear of “some men” includes those men who are sending us a different story. And because of that silence, society gets to pretend that these men are rare aberrations. Men get to pretend that their friend who was acquitted of rape was innocent. That the men who hurt women aren’t their friends and family.

The whole lie makes me feel physically sick.

Me too, spanglechick . I often feel nauseated when I have to stop and pay attention to it.

For years and years I just turned the volume down on my own feelings about this stuff, because walking around in a rage isn’t good for anyone.

The #metoo thing woke me up again, and I was enraged by it but when I stopped being angry, I felt sick at the truth of it. One of the worst moments was seeing my nieces and goddaughters post up #metoo on their Facebook feeds, and I knew that nothing I’d done in my life was enough to have protected them or changed it so it wouldn’t happen to them.


I’ve told this story before: I was at a gig and I got groped really badly. It was more of an assault really. I turned and walloped the guy, and then I walloped him again, and then I was grinding my fist into his face, so of course he was then rescued from the crazy lady by his mates and I was taken out of the crowd. My mate (a man) came with me and we went to stand outside with the smokers. My friend asked what had happened, offered to go find the bloke, asked me if I wanted to report it. I was venting, shouting and letting go of the anger. Then this man standing over to one side said “There’s always one, isn’t there” and I lost my shit.

“But it’s not one, is it. It’s all of you! I’d guarantee that every single woman you know has been on the receiving end of this bullshit for her entire life, and a good number have been raped assaulted or beaten in their own homes. So who’s doing it? It’s not one bloke going up and down the country, is it. “There’s always one...” bullshit! It could be you, or your mates. How do you know it’s not? And it probably is you because none of you seem to know the effects of your behaviour, you could have coerced or bullied a woman without even realising it, because you’re all a bunch of pricks! [turning to my mate] For all I know, you’ve treated women like shit at some point, how do I know you’ve not, when I’ve been treated like shit by so many of you?” And as I paused for breath this guy pushed past me and muttered “Fucking feminist!” To which I replied “I rest my case”.


And I’d add NAMNAW , because it’s true, but we have to act and behave as if it *is* all men and all women, because this nonsense of saying “it’s not me so it’s not an issue” has to change.

If you’re a women, it’s an issue even if it’s never happened to you.

If you’re a man it’s your issue, because nothing we’ve said or done over the decades had made this stop. So men have to talk to each other about this bullshit.

The reason women’s discourse hasn’t put a stop to it is exactly because men don’t listen to, don’t respect, don’t believe, don’t give weight to, don’t hear, what women say. If you’re going to talk over us in a conversation at the dinner table (and you do) why the fuck would you listen to us anywhere else?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Men interrupting women during verbal exchanges:

How often are women interrupted by men? Here's what the research says.

http://time.com

Language Ideologies: Do Women Really Talk More Than Men?

There is loads and loads on this.

 

[JudithB]

Some might find this interesting to watch/listen to - the first 20 mins are a bit Terfy, but at 25:20 it gets into what many have been talking about above

 

[friendofdorothy]

I skipped the first 25 mins (can't face it) and it is about about how feminism hasn't had any effect at all in stopping sexual violence, and rape or in improving conviction rates.
then at 30 mins they start talking about his critique of a gillette advert (Which advert?)

snips:
She says: there is no way of talking about male violence with out men going 'but I'm one of the good guys, why are you talking to me?' .... we never get past that defensiveness ... what is it that can't be heard? what is it about women pointing to male violence that men cannot hear ...
to which he replies: that's hard for me to get around... are you talking about me being violent? ....what proportion of the violence is male? (doesn't this prove her point?)

'men are default humans .... so their crime is seen as default human crime' ...... ......just for one second try to pretend this is not all about you. .... there is a problem with a a certain type of masculine conditioning. . . it gets excused. Women are dealing with a massive amount of trauma it is not acceptable. We want it to stop. Women can't enforce. It men need to talk to men.

He gets back to talking about trans rights at 55mins (sorry I have no time to hear the whole thing, now)
NAMNAW etc

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Whenever I get the chance I ask my men friends:

When was the last time you had a proper conversation about feminism, sexism, misogyny, gendered products, all that etc?

Some of them will fess up to “never” or “very rarely” or “a really long time ago”. Some admit they’ve never ever had a conversation about it with anyone.

And then if they say “Oh yeah, I do talk about this stuff” I’ll say “And when was the last time you spoke with a man about it? Do you discuss it with your mates?” invariably they admit that they’ve rarely or never talked about sexism and misogyny when men, only with their women friends, sometimes with their sons.

So then I ask them “Please, it’s time for you to be taking about this with each other. Women are sick to death of talking about it and nothing changing. Please talk to each other about this shit; please step up.”

 

[Miss-Shelf]

Whenever I get the chance I ask my men friends:

When was the last time you had a proper conversation about feminism, sexism, misogyny, gendered products, all that etc?

Some of them will fess up to “never” or “very rarely” or “a really long time ago”. Some admit they’ve never ever had a conversation about it with anyone.

And then if they say “Oh yeah, I do talk about this stuff” I’ll say “And when was the last time you spoke with a man about it? Do you discuss it with your mates?” invariably they admit that they’ve rarely or never talked about sexism and misogyny when men, only with their women friends, sometimes with their sons.

So then I ask them “Please, it’s time for you to be taking about this with each other. Women are sick to death of talking about it and nothing changing. Please talk to each other about this shit; please step up.”

On the back of a friends comment on facebook on IWD this year about very few people identifying as feminists in UK, I asked a load of people randomly in my address book, because I thought 'nearly everyone I know identifies as a feminist'

in that random selection, which was more female and NB than male, only one male came back and said 'yes' [and I know he's always said he was a feminist since the '80's], a few males came back and said 'yes I suppose so...what does it mean, though?' and some said they'd never been asked before

 

[killer b]

Whenever I get the chance I ask my men friends:

When was the last time you had a proper conversation about feminism, sexism, misogyny, gendered products, all that etc?

Some of them will fess up to “never” or “very rarely” or “a really long time ago”. Some admit they’ve never ever had a conversation about it with anyone.

And then if they say “Oh yeah, I do talk about this stuff” I’ll say “And when was the last time you spoke with a man about it? Do you discuss it with your mates?” invariably they admit that they’ve rarely or never talked about sexism and misogyny when men, only with their women friends, sometimes with their sons.

So then I ask them “Please, it’s time for you to be taking about this with each other. Women are sick to death of talking about it and nothing changing. Please talk to each other about this shit; please step up.”

I think one of the many reasons this doesn't happen is that men often don't have friends at all - or not in the way most women understand them.

I found this article had some very uncomfortable points to make...

How Men Became "Emotional Gold Diggers" — Men Have No Friends and Women Bear the Burden

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I’ve seen that article, maybe even on here somewhere.

I’d agree that a lot of men don’t seem to have men friends. Fortunately, a lot of the men I know do have a good strong close circle of mates, but that’s mainly by virtue of the work they do, not necessarily because they’re switched on well rounded people. It’s an artefact, it’s a necessity, it’s not a result of personal development and emotional health.

Emotional health arises from their work circumstances and the attendant close relationships with men, not the other way around.

ETA It occurs to me that I see more close friendships between working class men and those with less money than between more affluent and middle class men.


And I see a great many men all around me - in other friendship groups, those I see through my work and connected with my women friends - who are exactly as described in the article. (The husband of a friend did actually say to me, as pointed out in the article “Yeah, I don’t need to see anyone for this: I have a wife”. And for shame, at the time I only saw it as a compliment, not as a sign of anything being wrong.)


My brother is quite a lot younger than his three older sisters (I’m the oldest at 10 years older than he, my sisters are two and three years younger) and he also has a younger sister. As a result he’s comfortable with women. He often laments that the male friends he made at university (in America, where he’s lived since) have drifted away and do not maintain their friendships at all. When our Dad died recently, only one of his male friends made themselves available to him. It was heartbreaking to see.



One of the results of that emotional gold digging thing in the article is that once again, women are unable to act freely; we are tethered to the relationship, to the home, to the family in ways that bar us from our own personal endeavours. If we go ahead and do it anyway the fallout is ridiculous: the house is a fucking tip when we get home, there’s resentment on all sides because of our physical&emotonal attention is being held elsewhere, there’s little or no psychic and physical space for use to write/paint/study/build/make stuff, there is endless interruption and distraction due to demands for food, love, attention, and there’s also sabotage: the unconscious or deliberate intention to get us away from our work and have us turn once again towards the needs of the family. NAMNAW


And for little or no regard, reward, acknowledgement or honour.


killer b While I’m sorry that you’re feeling uncomfortable about some of the things you’re reading (see, automatic habitual emotional support there...) I’m also really glad that you’re allowing yourself to feel uncomfortable. Too often, for reasons that are either/or/and/also subtle and obvious, men find themselves bumping up against reactions and feelings that make then uncomfortable..... and then they turn away from that, so there is no change. You’re *meant* to feel uncomfortable! Because it’s constricting and stupid! When we feel discomfort, that’s a sign that we need to make some kind of change.







As an aside, now that this thread has gone a bit quiet, I’m wondering if any men are still reading it. That’s not an invitation to jump in btw. It may well be a reflection of my own patriarchal tendencies: if a man isn’t responding am I talking at all...