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Feminism - where are the threads?

Looby, that's really shit, if not (sadly) unusual.

I posted on the pissed off thread (I think) a while go about being out with a friend and some bloke who wouldn't leave us alone. My point -- that you should be able to say 'not interested' and the guy should, with good grace, leave you to it -- was lost in the discussion about how we should've poured a drink over the guy's head or that maybe we hadn't been clear enough that we weren't interested and other such macho/'victim' blaming rubbish. I was quite disappointed at some of the posts from people who I thought were better than that.

Also interesting to ponder that in this situation, it turns out they thought all along that you were ugly and probably a lesbian* or whatever. :rolleyes:

*So for a lot of men, this seems to be the ultimate insult. Is it because there obviously must be something wrong with you if you're not into men or that you must be a lesbian because you're so unattractive that you wouldn't be able to find a man even if you wanted one or what? (I'm sure some on here have pondered this way more than I have -- interested in your thoughts.) It always makes me laugh anyway -- I'm not into women but being 'accused' of being a lesbian like it's the worst thing ever just seems utterly bizarre. (FWIW, as a woman with short hair working in a very male field, people are often surprised when they discover I'm straight as they've assumed otherwise.)
 
You’re either a fucking slag/an ugly bitch or a lesbian when you turn down a bloke :rolleyes: I don’t know why lesbian is said in the same breath as insults either. Weird isn’t it?

And actually there is a relief in getting older that my days of the sort of experiences that Looby describes are behind me (plus I don’t really go out anymore).

But it is so wearing. When you’re out with your friends and you see a man coming over and you don’t know if he’s going to smile and turn away when you say thanks but no thanks or if you’re going to get a mouthful of abuse or worse. You can never really relax; you’re always slightly on guard.
 
Poot said:
We have a choice of having no power or being hated?
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Yes, this is exactly so (for me). And, I think, for quite a lot of working class people (including, of course, men) who have been cruelly let down by wage stagnation, lack of opportunity, even the ability to survive day to day. Naively, I used to believe that if only mens and women's lives were not forced to run on such separate trajectories, all would be so much better. Like walking a mile in someone else's shoes, having no opportunity to step out of a pre-ordained role (caring, nurturing, looking inwards for women, providing, being out in the world for men), we would have some ground for recognition and acceptance of the particular burdens we carry. Of course, this was hopelessly nitwittish and a bit deluded...but on some level at least, within the bounds of my relationships, a certain equality in our roles did allow for a more generous acknowledgment of societal expectations.
Although my early forays in feminism occured, in a differently precarious time (Greenham Common occupied months and years of my life), before 'society' was reduced to a scary mob and workers became just units of profit...bur it seems to me, that hate is not the motivating factor in male violence and suppression, but fear, shame and a sneaky belief that, buried in our biology (whether we even glance in the direction of child-bearing or not), we are simply immune to the pressures of being a breadwinner, provider, the steady foundation.
In my heart, I want to dismiss segregation by gender, race, belief because it makes us small and disconnected...but without common cause, it seems hard to find places to stand in solidarity.
 
SheilaNaGig said:
Not all men not all women etc.....

This is part of the problem with having this discussion. It’s absolutely necessary, I reckon, for men to hear this stuff, and to be a part of the conversation too, so we shouldn’t have it in isolation. But so often, as we’ve seen over and over again, on here and in our own lives, it gets mired down in the details and cul de sacs, or in the issues of a man saying over and over “You’re wrong because...”

And over and over, we have to add in the caveats, qualifiers, disclaimers and exit routes.

We’re not talking about every single man and every single encounter ever, we’re talking about a huge deep problem that affects most of us - men and women, cis and trans - in very significant ways, most of the time.

There will always be exception. but it really is a general experience, and it’s generally true, so we have to speak in generalities.
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It wasn't really a disclaimer about not all men, I don't think all men are like this, but more a qualifier or note of caution in relation to claims about how individual psychology intersects with social dynamics/structures.
 
Red Cat said:
It wasn't really a disclaimer about not all men, I don't think all men are like this, but more a qualifier or note of caution in relation to claims about how individual psychology intersects with social dynamics/structures.
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Again I agree with you. I’m always hoping and indeed aiming to tease out the specific “why? how? when?” in the men I know. I have known a great many Lost Boys, and I’ve loved them deeply, sometimes disastrously.

It has to be said though that a huge degree of the damage done to them is a result of this whole toxic knotty issue of the patriarchy.


But yeah, these clarifications are important.
 
campanula said:
bur it seems to me, that hate is not the motivating factor in male violence and suppression, but fear, shame and a sneaky belief that, buried in our biology (whether we even glance in the direction of child-bearing or not), we are simply immune to the pressures of being a breadwinner, provider, the steady foundation.
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I liked all of your post. I’d be interested to know more about this bit: could you expand a bit please campanula ?
 
Ah, a bit tangled, though, Sheila, because I am never too sure where the boundaries of self and society intersect...but it can't have evaded notice that the 'traditional' womanly attributes of caring, nursing, educating are both lower paid and professionally disregarded...while childcare, whether voluntary or paid, is still very lowly indeed. As I have spent my entire life in a 'caring' role, I have certainly also internalised a sense of my utter lack of importance...yet at least 3 people simply would not even exist without my literal and metaphysical labour...2 of which are male. And not just child-rearing either, but a lifetime of youthwork, social work, voluntary work and political committment has left me in no doubt that my social value is valid...yet it has been a struggle to be seen as anything other than an accessory to make capital run smoothly. And sadly, this dismissal of 'women's work has been corrossive and diminishing... to an extent, it is not even seen as 'women's work but as 'service' work...an increasing employment sector given manufacturing (and many traditionally 'masculine') jobs are vanishing.
When it suited the whims of Capital to ensure childbearing did not diminish the value of productive members of the workforce, the stay at home caretaking model was simultaneously sentimentalised and disempowered...but a nation of unpaid carers quite literally held the future in their hands. The 'mother' archetype is both nurturing and monstrous. No-one personifies evil more than the murderous woman who subverts all natural law and order. Whore Madonna, Eve/Lilith, both sides of the same coin.
 
So, my political ideas were shaped by a very personal struggle for recognition (this was the 70s) which was eventually superceded (for me) by the far-reaching changes being inflicted upon working class communities under Thatcher. For the longest time, I felt local and immediate feminist battles were well on their way to being overcome...and I was, I admit, falsely cheered by the general respect for miner's wives, female strikers, and in my own work, the wider recognition given to domestic violence, broadening opportunities for education...although never, for a moment, did I think that equality of opportunity was becoming available on a global level.
And I was dismayed by a vague feeling that self-actuality was basically a push to consume and merit was decided by wealth and material status. Plus, the 'freedom' to take up careers failed to seem like such a bargain when we still had to do all the other shit as well. Then, what felt like a reversal came when other, (younger, more educated ) women dismissed my entire being as unambitious, undemanding, basically a drag. So yeah, I believe feminism is necessary, vital and a wholly valid part of a wider class struggle for parity and justice but is still deeply rooted in the personal interactions of daily life... plus, you have to play the hand you are dealt because it is a long process, not a series of discrete events.
 
Manter said:
Yes. Regularly. Still. In person and online. And I am fat, middle aged and plain. Which goes on the emphasise yet again that it’s power not sex that’s at stake.

And as has been pointed out before, the easiest way to diffuse is to say you have a husband waiting for you. Some one else’s possession seems easier for men to handle than free to say no.
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I've done that before now - my husband the tall heavyweight boxer, of course. There is absolutely no point in saying my female partner is waiting for me, even now.
 
friendofdorothy said:
I've done that before now - my husband the tall heavyweight boxer, of course. There is absolutely no point in saying my female partner is waiting for me, even now.
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I once used a bouncer boyfriend to get a bloke out of my house who was showing signs of not being willing to go. I hadn’t really thought this through and he got pissy that I was cheating on my ‘boyfriend’ but he did leave.
 
Sue said:

Also interesting to ponder that in this situation, it turns out they thought all along that you were ugly and probably a lesbian* or whatever. :rolleyes:

*So for a lot of men, this seems to be the ultimate insult. Is it because there obviously must be something wrong with you if you're not into men or that you must be a lesbian because you're so unattractive that you wouldn't be able to find a man even if you wanted one or what? (I'm sure some on here have pondered this way more than I have -- interested in your thoughts.) It always makes me laugh anyway -- I'm not into women but being 'accused' of being a lesbian like it's the worst thing ever just seems utterly bizarre. (FWIW, as a woman with short hair working in a very male field, people are often surprised when they discover I'm straight as they've assumed otherwise.)
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Actually being a lesbian is no defence at all, no protection, it only makes them more interested 'Can I join in?' 'Can I watch' etc. And it can be dangerous. I've certainly legged it in the past.

Being middle aged and menopausal helps enormously I'm finally become invisible to men and it is liberating! I can drink in a straight pub with friends and no one cares, no one interupts me and no one is predatory to me. Men have no idea how much mental energy women have to waste on defending them selves against this sort of shit.
 
friendofdorothy said:
Actually being a lesbian is no defence at all, no protection, it only makes them more interested 'Can I join in?' 'Can I watch' etc. And it can be dangerous. I've certainly legged it in the past.

Being middle aged and menopausal helps enormously I'm finally become invisible to men and it is liberating! I can drink in a straight pub with friends and no one cares, no one interupts me and no one is predatory to me. Men have no idea how much mental energy women have to waste on defending them selves against this sort of shit.
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Interesting though I guess my point was more whether you're a lesbian or not, for some guys 'accusing' you of being so is THE most insulting thing they can think of to say. And it's interesting because for the women I know -- mainly straight -- it's really not an insult at all but this doesn't seem to even cross their minds...
 
Sue said:
Interesting though I guess my point was more whether you're a lesbian or not, for some guys 'accusing' you of being so is THE most insulting thing they can think of to say. And it's interesting because for the women I know -- mainly straight -- it's really not an insult at all but this doesn't seem to even cross their minds...
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I think that rather than being an insult (although they do mean it as such) what they’re really saying is “Well it’s not that you don’t want *me*, obviously, is it: it must be because you don’t fancy any man at all”.

Shame and humiliation again, I suppose. It’s easier for them to believe that you’re a lesbian than that you’d not want to fuck them.

“Frigid” is the other one: meaning “It’s not that you don’t want me, it’s that you are incapable of having sex with anyone at all”.

“Stuck up bitch” means “Your standards are unrealistically high”, again a way to say “It's not me, it’s you that’s the problem here”.





Manter said:
I long for the day when ‘I don’t want to’ is enough
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When I was young and naive and still a virgin, I spent an entire night saying “Because I don’t want to” to a bloke.

But why won’t you sleep, with me?

Because I don’t want to.

But why don’t you want to?

Because I don’t.

But why?

Why do I need to have a reason other than not wanting to?

But that’s not a reason! Why won’t you sleep with me?

All night long. I was staying over at a mate’s place, and her fella’s mate was the one who was bothering me. All night long, til the sun came up.


ETA
Added to which, I was 15 and he was in his early twenties...
 
SheilaNaGig said:
I think that rather than being an insult (although they do mean it as such) what they’re really saying is “Well it’s not that you don’t want *me*, obviously, is it: it must be because you don’t fancy any man at all”.

Shame and humiliation again, I suppose. It’s easier for them to believe that you’re a lesbian than that you’d not want to fuck them.
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Strangely a lot of blokes still beleived that even though you were a lesbian you still might fuck with them, after all they have seen porn movies about that...
 
friendofdorothy said:
Strangely a lot of blokes still beleived that even though you were a lesbian you still might fuck with them, after all they have seen porn movies about that...
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I've said it before on these boards, but I do think porn is playing an increasing role in some if this. A lot of it is outright abusive, and, whereas my generation got an understanding of what sex is actually like before the online porn explosion, this stuff is formative for a lot of young men. To the extent that I overheard some lads in their early 20s at football the other day, and it seems they pretty much expect a random sexual encounter to involve anal sex, and culminate in cumming on a woman's face (and that's no exaggeration). Now I may be wrong, but I suspect that's not what young women are after.
 
friendofdorothy said:
Strangely a lot of blokes still beleived that even though you were a lesbian you still might fuck with them, after all they have seen porn movies about that...
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My daughter and her g/f have had fucking shedloads of hassle from straight men, wanting to 'join in' etc. :mad:

SheilaNaGig said:
I can appreciate that objectively it seems like it can’t possibly be true, but once you have experienced it subjectively, there is not doubt, none at all, that men really do hate women. And it shocks me over and over again: every time I’m reminded of it or made to face it again, it shocks me again.
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Yep. It gets increasingly wearisome and I wish it would just fuck off.

SheilaNaGig said:
And I really do feel it as a noticeably different thing when I meet a man who genuinely and sincerely and deeply does admire and respect women. I guess my default setting is a kind if instinctive wariness, which is then confounded when the... spite...? isn’t there.
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Same - I've absolutely loved loads of your posts on this thread SheilaNaGig

Manter said:
What women need to feel safe and cared for in society is for all the other men to speak out.
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This. My fella recently read Everyday Sexism by Laura Bates and was shocked by it. It really opened his eyes to what he, as one of the most gentle men you could ever meet, had just not picked up on at all in other men. Now aware, he is always looking for ways to express that/pass it on to other men.
 
weepiper said:
I recognise that 'must overtake' mentality from commuting on a bike. Lots of men will push in front at traffic lights only for me then to sit up their arse frustrated because they're riding slower than I want to.
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I notice it driving a lot (having never overtaken anyone on a bike :D ). I realised that a lot of men will look over to see who’s driving when i overtake, overtake back and then slow down. I don’t know if those blokes do it to other men but it’s very obvious that men* look when they’re being overtaken and women typically don’t.

* can we take it as a given that it’s not all men? It gets boring typing it out but please assume it’s implicit in my posts.
 
trashpony said:
I notice it driving a lot (having never overtaken anyone on a bike :D ). I realised that a lot of men will look over to see who’s driving when i overtake, overtake back and then slow down. I don’t know if those blokes do it to other men but it’s very obvious that men* look when they’re being overtaken and women typically don’t.

* can we take it as a given that it’s not all men? It gets boring typing it out but please assume it’s implicit in my posts.
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Hi viz is very much my friend, I find. A cursory glance and people assume I mean business and don't fuck me around. I'm not a slow, dithery driver but I have been tailgated before but NEVER in hi viz. For a while I thought I was imagining it but I'm definitely not.
 
trashpony said:
I love swimming, but I’m sick of the sexist behaviour in British pools | Ellie Mae O’Hagan

Thought this was interesting
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She's not alone in her annoyance - as a bloke whose knees will no longer take the stress of jogging, I've recently started swimming regularly for the first time in about 30 years. It's definitely other blokes who are the most annoying. I tend to pootle along in the slow lane, and every so often some twat starts swimming in it too quickly & overtaking everyone, despite the faster, middle lane being all of 6 feet to the left. I wish I could say the generalisation was misplaced, but the reality is that the most annoying people in the pool are almost always men... :(
 
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