Feminism - where are the threads?

[kabbes]

I don’t know about hate. Contempt is closer. But most of all it seems to me that the complete commodification of people that exists these days is simply manifested as men seeing women as objects to be used rather than fully realised human beings. Mind you, I doubt the objectification itself is new, even if its social origins may have changed.

The hate visible on social media is less surprising when you see social media as being such a battleground of this personal commoditisation — individuals selling themselves and their features, not connecting to the multiple layers of the other. It’s all I-It, not I-Thou. In a medium where others are objects to be consumed, it’s not surprising that some people will react to an object they don’t like with disgust and anger.

 

[Poot]

Maybe the contempt is because in practically all of those cases, a woman actually holds a little bit of power over those men? If they really didn't care about us, they would ignore us. The fact is that the most hate-driven acts are reserved for partners or people who rebuff advances or women who hold actual positions of power - famously female politicians suffer most. Any rebuffed sexual advance, any dawning realisation that you care deeply for someone, that means you are in some sort of weaker position. That person has power.

I don't believe Germaine Greer. I know some lovely men who I really don't think hate me. But I hold no position of power except in the lives of a tiny handful of people and that frustrates them, but moreso the men I think. I think other women probably see more contempt because they hold more power, though. It backs up what others are saying about control, for sure.

But then what? We have a choice of having no power or being hated? I mean, obviously it's more nuanced than that but still...

 

[Manter]

Very good question - why do they hate us? this is at the essence of feminism. Indiviuals may love each - but the systems still reinforce that 'hatred'

I used to think it was about control of female behaviour.

On a more one -one level has anyone had a man chat them up/court them - only to turn utterly hateful, even violent if turned down or rejected? is this the essence of that hate? seems to be about possession to me. I've ideas but no answers - anyone else?

*Disclaimer* not all men not all women etc

Yes. Regularly. Still. In person and online. And I am fat, middle aged and plain. Which goes on the emphasise yet again that it’s power not sex that’s at stake.

And as has been pointed out before, the easiest way to diffuse is to say you have a husband waiting for you. Some one else’s possession seems easier for men to handle than free to say no.

 

[Manter]

I was just dealing with baldrick ‘s question. In terms of a kind of default underlying nastiness, what kind of proportion of men would you say that was coming from?

This is impossible to answer. In a group of ten men, if only one hates you that can still get you seriously hurt, physically or emotionally. If 5, 7, 9 hate you but only one does anything about it, the result is the same. If one hates you and 9 silently disapprove of him, as a woman, the outcome is the same.

What women need to feel safe and cared for in society is for all the other men to speak out. To shout down the pervs and leerers on the street, to blacklist that mate who gets pissed and tries it on with women in bars- refuse to socialise with them, don’t invite them to stuff, to laugh at not with men who make sexist jokes or personal remarks. Make the low level shit women have to deal with have a serious social cost.

 

[Winot]

I don’t *think* many of my male friends hate women but it’s undeniable (from their actions) that many men do. And because I have chosen to have nothing to do with men who obviously hate women, I have no insight into why they do.

But when I look at times when I have behaved in a way that isn’t wholly respectful towards women, I can get some insight - that it’s something to do with feeling threatened, that something you have could be taken away.

So yes, I think it’s to do with power. Fragile ego and self doubt plus patriarchal power structure = misogyny.

 

[Poot]

All of the above is true but also I would like to draw attention to the fact that men don't seem to realise how scary they can be without even trying sometimes. You don't even need to threaten us, the threat is already there. I'm thinking in particular of occasions when I've been running alone and been accosted. Just don't do it. Don't say anything. Leave me alone. Why does the sight of a woman running raise male dander so much? As soon as it happens, the spell is broken, there is no longer a sense of freedom and they've won. It's shit.

 

[Athos]

Maybe the contempt is because in practically all of those cases, a woman actually holds a little bit of power over those men? If they really didn't care about us, they would ignore us. The fact is that the most hate-driven acts are reserved for partners or people who rebuff advances or women who hold actual positions of power - famously female politicians suffer most. Any rebuffed sexual advance, any dawning realisation that you care deeply for someone, that means you are in some sort of weaker position. That person has power.

I don't believe Germaine Greer. I know some lovely men who I really don't think hate me. But I hold no position of power except in the lives of a tiny handful of people and that frustrates them, but moreso the men I think. I think other women probably see more contempt because they hold more power, though. It backs up what others are saying about control, for sure.

But then what? We have a choice of having no power or being hated? I mean, obviously it's more nuanced than that but still...

Perhaps that's the tipping point? Those men hold all women in contempt, such that they feel hurt, threatened, and/or enraged by any with power over them (be it power to rebuff sexual advances, power as a boss, greater intelligence, etc.). And that's when it bubbles over into naked hatred.

 

[Athos]

This is impossible to answer. In a group of ten men, if only one hates you that can still get you seriously hurt, physically or emotionally. If 5, 7, 9 hate you but only one does anything about it, the result is the same. If one hates you and 9 silently disapprove of him, as a woman, the outcome is the same.

What women need to feel safe and cared for in society is for all the other men to speak out. To shout down the pervs and leerers on the street, to blacklist that mate who gets pissed and tries it on with women in bars- refuse to socialise with them, don’t invite them to stuff, to laugh at not with men who make sexist jokes or personal remarks. Make the low level shit women have to deal with have a serious social cost.

Absolutely this. In the past, whilst I've been quite happy to whack blokes I've seen e.g. groping women, I've been complicit by turning a blind eye to the lower-level stuff by mates - sexist comments etc. Increasingly, I'm trying not to.

 

[8ball]

Thanks all for the responses to that one.

 

[Red Cat]

Perhaps that's the tipping point? Those men hold all women in contempt, such that they feel hurt, threatened, and/or enraged by any with power over them (be it power to rebuff sexual advances, power as a boss, greater intelligence, etc.). And that's when it bubbles over into naked hatred.

It's quite fragile this kind of masculinity, it's a defence, but a collective defence, socially sanctioned, encouraged since birth, and the social context is one in which the fragile, the weak, the vulnerable, the dependent, is projected into femininity, to be kept far away, except when it can be controlled and used. Any cracks and they're so frightened, so humiliated, it tips it over into hate and sometimes violence in order to shore it up again.

 

[Thora]

Sometimes multiple conversations go on at once. You'll get the hang of it.

Why do you keep posting on feminism threads just to shit all over them? You're coming across as a total dick recently.

 

[Manter]

It's quite fragile this kind of masculinity, it's a defence, but a collective defence, socially sanctioned, encouraged since birth, and the social context is one in which the fragile, the weak, the vulnerable, the dependent, is projected into femininity, to be kept far away, except when it can be controlled and used. Any cracks and they're so frightened, so humiliated, it tips it over into hate and sometimes violence in order to shore it up again.

It strikes me- in a number of contexts- that its ‘easy’ to be nasty- violent, spiteful, angry. That slipping down to the nastiest stuff within us is easy and yet on some level we all know that the right way is the harder route of being kind and thoughtful. So there is shame tangled up in there too. So shame, and fear, and power (over someone usually physically smaller as well as social constructs of masculinity) and so on make a toxic brew.

 

[Sue]

I was talking to one of my best friends about this recently. He's a gay man and was basically saying that all his friends are either gay men or women as he find the way many straight men act to be quite toxic. (The straight men he does socialise with tend to be the partners of his female friends.) Not sure that this adds much to the mix but thought it was interesting to hear this stuff from a slightly different viewpoint.

 

[Athos]

It strikes me- in a number of contexts- that its ‘easy’ to be nasty- violent, spiteful, angry. That slipping down to the nastiest stuff within us is easy and yet on some level we all know that the right way is the harder route of being kind and thoughtful. So there is shame tangled up in there too. So shame, and fear, and power (over someone usually physically smaller as well as social constructs of masculinity) and so on make a toxic brew.

I'm not even sure society does teach boys that being kind and thoughtful is the right way! I don't think there is that shame, and, if anything, that makes the brew even more toxic.

 

[Winot]

Sometimes multiple conversations go on at once. You'll get the hang of it.

I’ve asked the mods to thread ban you and I suggest others do the same.

 

[Red Cat]

I'm not even sure society does teach boys that being kind and thoughtful is the right way! I don't think there is that shame, and, if anything, that makes the brew even more toxic.

I think shame is absolutely part of the picture, not shame over having done something morally wrong, but shame over weakness, losing control. I think shame and humiliation are very tightly bound.

 

[Athos]

I think shame is absolutely part of the picture, not shame over having done something morally wrong, but shame over weakness, losing control. I think shame and humiliation are very tightly bound.

Yes, I think the shame/humiliation of being subordinate to a woman, is much stronger in many men than any shame they feel about mistreating women.

Eta: I've known blokes who've cheated on their wives just to prove to their mates they're not 'under the thumb.'

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think shame is absolutely part of the picture, not shame over having done something morally wrong, but shame over weakness, losing control. I think shame and humiliation are very tightly bound.

Yes. I think this is also where the anxiety and self esteem comes into it. How men deal with that or not is pivotal IME.

 

[trashpony]

Yes, I think the shame/humiliation of being subordinate to a woman, is much stronger in many men than any shame they feel about mistreating women.

Eta: I've known blokes who've cheated on their wives just to prove to their mates they're not 'under the thumb.'

I think we've seen some evidence of that on this thread.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I don't think I'm personally well acquainted with any men who hate women. But I am with a hell of a lot who are utterly contemptuous of them ‐ seeing women as lesser beings, good only for fucking and waiting on them. And it's a vicious cycle, the more they are contemptuous, the easier to justify dominating, and the more they dominate, the easier it is to hold women in contempt.

I don’t know about hate. Contempt is closer. But most of all it seems to me that the complete commodification of people that exists these days is simply manifested as men seeing women as objects to be used rather than fully realised human beings. Mind you, I doubt the objectification itself is new, even if its social origins may have changed.

The hate visible on social media is less surprising when you see social media as being such a battleground of this personal commoditisation — individuals selling themselves and their features, not connecting to the multiple layers of the other. It’s all I-It, not I-Thou. In a medium where others are objects to be consumed, it’s not surprising that some people will react to an object they don’t like with disgust and anger.

Thank you to the men who are making these honest posts.


You both say “it’s not hate, it’s contempt” and I know the difference and I can understand why it’s important to differentiate them, especially during a discussion like this.

But when I’m standing there and I’m receiving existential contempt or hate or sneering rejection from a fellow human being, and that human being is similar in many respects to all the others who’ve expressed generalised disdain or disrespect or dislike towards me, and that’s being expressed in any number of subtle or extreme ways, and it’s the nth time of the day, in a lifetime of it, it’s quite hard to step back and differentiate the nuances. To be honest, it all starts to feel pretty hateful, like a great big black blob of hateful behaviour and attitude.

So I’m prepared to accept that Greer was perhaps a little hyperbolic in her assessment, but given that it was the first time someone had identified and named the problem - the problem of males hating on females as a generalised foundation behaviour - then I’m going to allow it.

It’s engendered a lot of useful and necessary discussion, this being one of them.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Maybe the contempt is because in practically all of those cases, a woman actually holds a little bit of power over those men? If they really didn't care about us, they would ignore us. The fact is that the most hate-driven acts are reserved for partners or people who rebuff advances or women who hold actual positions of power - famously female politicians suffer most. Any rebuffed sexual advance, any dawning realisation that you care deeply for someone, that means you are in some sort of weaker position. That person has power.

I don't believe Germaine Greer. I know some lovely men who I really don't think hate me. But I hold no position of power except in the lives of a tiny handful of people and that frustrates them, but moreso the men I think. I think other women probably see more contempt because they hold more power, though. It backs up what others are saying about control, for sure.

But then what? We have a choice of having no power or being hated? I mean, obviously it's more nuanced than that but still...

I too know really lovely men. I really do love men. Some of my favourite people on the planet are men. And I feel deeply loved by many men. But sometimes, when I see or hear their attitudes and behaviours towards women they don’t know, I realise that it’s a bit of the “Some of my best friends are...” thing : they love me because they know me, I’ve somehow passed a test of some kind and been accepted despite being a woman.

I know men who don’t really like other men, because they really prefer the company of women, because they find toxic masculinity anathema.

I also know men who claim (and believe themselves) to be feminists who are plainly misogynists.

 

[Looby]

All of the above is true but also I would like to draw attention to the fact that men don't seem to realise how scary they can be without even trying sometimes. You don't even need to threaten us, the threat is already there. I'm thinking in particular of occasions when I've been running alone and been accosted. Just don't do it. Don't say anything. Leave me alone. Why does the sight of a woman running raise male dander so much? As soon as it happens, the spell is broken, there is no longer a sense of freedom and they've won. It's shit.

Yes!
Me and my friends have decided to stop going to a bar/live music place for a while that we really love because the atmosphere in there the last few times has been off and weird.

We went a few months ago and there were a group of men on the dance floor that were just getting a bit too close. We’re pretty good at looking out for each other so we formed the wall, kept them away from the friends they seemed to be targeting and all that and it struck me just how natural and normal it felt to have to do that. We’ve learned after 20 odd years of going out that you make the wall to keep the creeps out.

Then we went there over Easter and there was a bloke there who was staring and leering and eventually did the ‘smile love’ thing. We were trying to dance and have fun but being watched like that made us all uncomfortable. We asked him to leave us to enjoy our night and he got funny and went to grab the back of my arm as I turned away. I snarled at him not to touch me and he skulked away, probably because I was several inches taller and several stones heavier so he wasn’t going to take me on just to creep on my friends.

Then another bloke who was very drunk or high or something started hanging around us. He didn’t talk, just placed himself between us looking angry and slightly intimidating. He was above us on the stairs for a while and ‘accidentally’ spilled some beer on us. I told the bouncer as I was leaving that he was spilling beer, being weird and could he just keep a bit of an eye. He laughed and said most of their customers were drunk and weird.

Five minutes after I left he roughly put his arm around my friend, grabbed her neck and was pulling her hair and had to be dragged off her and out of the bar. She was terrified and very upset.

So we’re not going back for at least a while. It’s not the creepy shitheads that are staying away, it’s us. We lose again.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Very good question - why do they hate us? this is at the essence of feminism. Indiviuals may love each - but the systems still reinforce that 'hatred'

I used to think it was about control of female behaviour.

On a more one -one level has anyone had a man chat them up/court them - only to turn utterly hateful, even violent if turned down or rejected? is this the essence of that hate? seems to be about possession to me. I've ideas but no answers - anyone else?

*Disclaimer* not all men not all women etc

It’s possession, and also pride, and other stuff too.

I was going out with a famous man, and we were out one night. My fella was surrounded by a group of people who were keen to spend time with him and I was over here at the bar, just enjoying the music and hanging out on my own. This chap came over and started to chat me up. I was trying to gauge the right moment to tell him “no thanks”. Too soon and they accuse you of being arrogant and up yourself, too late and they accuse you of leading them on.

So I judged the moment alright and he was pretty cool with it, and he stuck around for a bit of chat, to save some face I suppose, to indicate that he could take it or leave it really. So he asked me who I was here with, and I said “my boyfriend” and then he asked “so where is he then?” And I vaguely indicated in the general direction of my fella, who was still surrounded by fans. So the chap who was talking to me did a quick checklist calculation in his head, looked at me, and over there, and at me again: he was trying to work out if my boyfriend was one of the fans (in which case why was I standing over here all calm and collected) or the famous bloke. He worked it out and he said “What. Your boyfriend is F-?” to which I said “Yes”. And he really kicked off. His face went grim and furious and he took a step back and then he pulled himself up to full height and he started shouting and waving his arms around, loud enough that someone came over to check I was alright (I had my back against the bar).

I’m still not entirely sure why my having a famous boyfriend made him so angry at me. He was shouting “Why the fuck didn’t you tell me!”

Was he worried he’d stepped on the shoes of a more powerful man? Was he angry that I’d withheld information (but was I supposed to announce it?).

That man did nothing to indicate that he had anything in his heart but good positive feelings towards me, right up to the moment he switched to rage and fury and contempt, and probably he went home feeling something related to hate for me. Because he felt... what? Humiliated? Not because I’d turned him down but because I was going out with someone famous. I can’t even say it was someone that he himself admired: that’s possible but I have no way to be sure.

 

[Red Cat]

It’s possession, and also pride, and other stuff too.

I was going out with a famous man, and we were out one night. My fella was surrounded by a group of people who were keen to spend time with him and I was over here at the bar, just enjoying the music and hanging out on my own. This chap came over and started to chat me up. I was trying to gauge the right moment to tell him “no thanks”. Too soon and they accuse you of being arrogant and up yourself, too late and they accuse you of leading them on.

So I judged the moment alright and he was pretty cool with it, and he stuck around for a bit of chat, to save some face I suppose, to indicate that he could take it or leave it really. So he asked me who I was here with, and I said “my boyfriend” and then he asked “so where is he then?” And I vaguely indicated in the general direction of my fella, who was still surrounded by fans. So the chap who was talking to me did a quick checklist calculation in his head, looked at me, and over there, and at me again: he was trying to work out if my boyfriend was one of the fans (in which case why was I standing over here all calm and collected) or the famous bloke. He worked it out and he said “What. Your boyfriend is F-?” to which I said “Yes”. And he really kicked off. His face went grim and furious and he took a step back and then he pulled himself up to full height and he started shouting and waving his arms around, loud enough that someone came over to check I was alright (I had my back against the bar).

I’m still not entirely sure why my having a famous boyfriend made him so angry at me. He was shouting “Why the fuck didn’t you tell me!”

Was he worried he’d stepped on the shoes of a more powerful man? Was he angry that I’d withheld information (but was I supposed to announce it?).

That man did nothing to indicate that he had anything in his heart but good positive feelings towards me, right up to the moment he switched to rage and fury and contempt, and probably he went home feeling something related to hate for me. Because he felt... what? Humiliated? Not because I’d turned him down but because I was going out with someone famous. I can’t even say it was someone that he himself admired: that’s possible but I have no way to be sure.

Because I don't think it's women that they feel humiliated by but an internal perfect man that they always fall short of, that then gets projected into women as the humiliators. Abusive men who are often paranoid are clearly tormented by internal fantasies, the actual real live woman has very little to do with what they imagine about her when they're in these states of mind.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It strikes me- in a number of contexts- that its ‘easy’ to be nasty- violent, spiteful, angry. That slipping down to the nastiest stuff within us is easy and yet on some level we all know that the right way is the harder route of being kind and thoughtful. So there is shame tangled up in there too. So shame, and fear, and power (over someone usually physically smaller as well as social constructs of masculinity) and so on make a toxic brew.

Why is it harder to be kind and thoughtful?

What makes it so?

Is it harder for everyone or only for those who’ve been conditioned in a certain way during childhood?

Is this really harder to be kind than it is to be nasty, or is that an artefact of toxic masculinity, patriarchy and /or capitalism / add in possible systemic cause here...?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Because I don't think it's women that they feel humiliated by but an internal perfect man that they always fall short of, that then gets projected into women as the humiliators. Abusive men who are often paranoid are clearly tormented by internal fantasies, the actual real live woman has very little to do with what they imagine about her when they're in these states of mind.

Yes, I think that’s largely true. Looking back, I can see that it was a very salutary experience, it taught me a lot about how and why men feel the way they do.

I think it also freed me in a very deep way from thinking I was the problem, that I had to be a more conventionally pleasing woman.

It’s definitely a very powerful memory for me, and happened at a time in my life when a lot of my internal structures were being remodelled.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Yes, I think the shame/humiliation of being subordinate to a woman, is much stronger in many men than any shame they feel about mistreating women.

Eta: I've known blokes who've cheated on their wives just to prove to their mates they're not 'under the thumb.'

Yuck.

 

[Red Cat]

Yes, I think that’s largely true. Looking back, I can see that it was a very salutary experience, it taught me a lot about how and why men feel the way they do.
.

I mean, these are broad sweeping generalisations I'm making, and every person's internal dramas will be different and more complex than I'm painting, but I think there's a lot more going on than just the surface social stuff, and that this is just some of it.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I was just dealing with baldrick ‘s question. In terms of a kind of default underlying nastiness, what kind of proportion of men would you say that was coming from?

A dangerously high number.

Part of the problem here is that good number of men either don’t recognise it in themselves, or won’t.

And as Manter said, if one man in the room has a deep rage and contempt towards women it’s kind of irrelevant to know the number of men present who a)dislike b)are scared of or c)enjoy the company of ...



Given some of your posts on this thread, 8ball , I’m not sure how honest /disingenuous your question is.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I mean, these are broad sweeping generalisations I'm making, and every person's internal dramas will be different and more complex than I'm painting, but I think there's a lot more going on than just the surface social stuff, and that this is just some of it.

Not all men not all women etc.....

This is part of the problem with having this discussion. It’s absolutely necessary, I reckon, for men to hear this stuff, and to be a part of the conversation too, so we shouldn’t have it in isolation. But so often, as we’ve seen over and over again, on here and in our own lives, it gets mired down in the details and cul de sacs, or in the issues of a man saying over and over “You’re wrong because...”

And over and over, we have to add in the caveats, qualifiers, disclaimers and exit routes.

We’re not talking about every single man and every single encounter ever, we’re talking about a huge deep problem that affects most of us - men and women, cis and trans - in very significant ways, most of the time.

There will always be exception. but it really is a general experience, and it’s generally true, so we have to speak in generalities.