Feminism - where are the threads?

[8ball]

Given you don't know the answer to the actual question I have asked I don't know why you bothered to post that.

I don’t recall responding to a question.

 

[scifisam]

So banning isn’t enough when somone says something you don’t agree with which no one else agreed with it either and thought it was silly?

He did a more than say something people disagreed with and it wasn't just "silly." And yeah, it would be nice if thread banning actually meant thread banning, but if the software doesn't allow that then that's that.

People could read it without being registered but they couldn't like posts, so it is a bit different.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I don’t care if he’s reading and liking. He’ll be back in a week anyway and be free to read like or comment to his heart’s content then.

He’s still part of Urban even if he’s disrupted the thread. And he has a right to share his opinion. There are also people reading the thread who never comment, some of them never ever post. It’s the way of a bulletin board.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I don’t recall responding to a question.

Do you really have nothing better to do than this silly dance on this thread?

You didn't answer the question I asked because you actually didn't know the answer.

I'll answer yours though. Yes I think that when someone is banned from a thread it would be better that they also couldn't read it until their ban is up. This isn't a comment especially about what TC has or hasn't posted on this thread. But this situation today and the fact he can still like posts woke me up to the fact that it can happen at all. I didn't know it could.

I think that would be a useful way of helping people step away from bunfights for their own good and also that those left on the thread don't have to put up with passive aggressive sly-kes.

I do though understand Lazy Llama 's answer and can see why it doesn't work in public forums especially as people can read anyway without being a logged in member. At least though they wouldn't be able to like posts though.

 

[Treacle Toes]

He’s still part of Urban even if he’s disrupted the thread. And he has a right to share his opinion.

Has anyone said anything to the contrary?

ETA. If you don't like the fact he has been banned from the thread you could make that clear to the mods. Make a case for the decision to be overturned etc.

I don't like the way you have tagged this onto what I have posted about people being banned from threads and being able to read them as if the point I have made in anyway means TC isn't 'still part of Urban even if he’s disrupted the thread. And he has a right to share his opinion. ' Nothing I have posted comes close to meaning that.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Aggression and anger and how we are socialised to express it deal with it or communicate about it seems to be a a very gendered suject.

 

[8ball]

Has anyone said anything to the contrary?

 

[Edie]

In answer to your original question JudithB, this is why we don’t have threads on feminism. Because a lot of men on urban have so little respect for women that they tell us we’re doing it wrong, get angry and tell us to shut up.

I’d rather talk about feminism in places where men aren’t policing our speech tbh

Love from your friendly neighbourhood misandrist

Where do you do that outside of urban? I’d quite like to try that.

I’ve been thinking about this a bit.

It’s an example of one of the ways in which women are co-opted and coerced into supporting the old systems and channels.

Conversation, everyone is getting along, there’s some low level flirting and joshing...

A woman says something a bit outre, perhaps some overly colourful language or an out and out piss take of one of the blokes (depending on the company, choose the point on the spectrum accordingly)

There a slight pause for the reaction, drawing in of breath, muttered “ooh!”s or slap down response banter. The men in particular will step in to indicate the parameters and boundaries that have been breached.

But here’s the thing: some of the women will take their cue from the male response, will learn from this, it will add it to the sum of their knowledge and understanding about what is and is not acceptable for the men.

For some women, it will be about battle lines and frontiers, where to tackle the deeper issue, for others it will be about what they need to stay away from, be quiet about. But some of those women will actually stand with the men. They don’t want to be scolded, teased, have the piss taken out of them, or be considered The Enemy by men, so instead they agree with the men, support them, side with them for the sake of safety.

Even now, I encounter women even quite young women who seem to be very supportive of the patriarchy and men’s behaviour at the expense of their own. And they seem to feel as righteous as the men do about this stuff. They seem to feel that because they understand and support men, they’re somehow more than “just” a woman.

I encounter this kind of insidious female support for the patriarchy more frequently than I’d like to. It was pretty common when I was younger (I was guilty of it myself to some extent, which is why I recognise it) but I’d have hoped it was less common now than it is.

So a man crying “sexism” on a feminist thread looks to me a lot like a man falling into a default setting of trying to identify and locate and support the women who might support the patriarchy. I suspect that men don’t even realise they’re doing it.


Qualifier not all men not all women etc.

Im definitely like this sometimes. Not wanting to be looked at as man hating or be seen as The Enemy by men. Tbf I think I’ve spent a lot of years making excuses for men when excuses shouldn’t of been made. On the other hand, I do genuinely like men and I do often feel protective of them, I worry about boys doing worse in school (especially my boys ) and male suicide and knife crime and all those male issues. We’ve talked about this on another thread I know.

I don’t want feminism to be seen as being opposed to men, but it needn’t. Feminism should hopefully be about re-structuring society in a way that’s beneficial to both women and men.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Has anyone said anything to the contrary?

ETA. If you don't like the fact he has been banned from the thread you could make that clear to the mods. Make a case for the decision to be overturned etc.

I don't like the way you have tagged this onto what I have posted about people being banned from threads and being able to read them as if the point I have made in anyway means TC isn't 'still part of Urban even if he’s disrupted the thread. And he has a right to share his opinion. ' Nothing I have posted comes close to meaning that.

Huh?


I have no issue with him being banned from the thread. Not sure how you got that from what I posted tbh.

And if you feel insulted or slighted by what I wrote, then I apologise for that. It wasn’t my intention. I agree you never said he wasn’t part of Urban. I had no intention of implying that you meant that. Not even sure how you interpreted that from my post.


ETA


I could put a much larger gap between the two paragraphs in my post if you like.

The two ideas were not both related to your post, they were both related to my own thinking. One thought following the other. A bit like this.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Huh?


I have no issue with him being banned from the thread. Not sure how you got that from what I posted tbh.

And if you feel insulted or slighted by what I wrote, then I apologise for that. It wasn’t my intention. I agree you never said he wasn’t part of Urban. I had no intention of implying that you meant that. Not even sure how you interpreted that from my post.

Not insulted nor slighted Sheila, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't being intrepreted as saying those things. My point was a general one really just using this situation as an example as I didn't know that it was possible before and obviously had never thought about it too deeply.

Gonna leave this now as it's a disruption.

 

[scifisam]

Sheila, you saying he has a right to post his opinion could be read as saying that you disagree with him being banned, just so you know - I know that's not what you meant but that's where the misunderstanding lies

 

[kabbes]

This thread is in danger of failing the Bechdel test.

 

[Santino]

Hush too.

 

[spanglechick]

This thread is in danger of failing the Bechdel test.

So sorry sir.

 

[campanula]

I am more comfortable discussing (and dissing) a vaguely non-specific entity known as 'the patriarchy, because it primarily equates with power...but feel less inclined to be confrontational to individual men (a mix of being cowardly but also socialised from birth to put other people's needs before my own). But, when I initially discovered feminist politics, it was this very personal sphere (the personal is the political) where, as well as being fucked over by The Man, we were also fucked over by the man...who abused us, beat us, raped and scared us (while the Yorkshire Ripper and Cambridge rapist were terrorising women, we marched to 'reclaim the night', created refuges. We ascribed the right, for ourselves, to some autonomy and personal space.
I guess I took my eye off the ball for a bit - although feminism was never homogenous, I struggled to recognise some of the priorities of a 21C sisterhood...and was, I admit, perfectly content with my relationships with men in my life (admittedly, not many cos I am shy and anti-social) - my boys, partner, son-in law (although ex) and children's father(s)...yet not for one second do I think we are in a post-feminist world. I can say, with some certainty, that many of our achievements have happened when we have had a degree of female autonomy, without male input. It is a whole heap easier for me to express my thoughts, ideas, when I don't have to struggle with my embedded instincts to back away, not make a fuss or risk humiliation from some political theorist who is testing my political purity...terminology and ready to leap righteously aboard to...win the fucking argument.
In other words, to be perfectly honest, it would probably suit me if the men would kindly fuck off for a bit...although I don't expect this to happen, nor am I pointing fingers (overmuch)...but ya know, the idea of being supportive...

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Sheila, you saying he has a right to post his opinion could be read as saying that you disagree with him being banned, just so you know - I know that's not what you meant but that's where the misunderstanding lies

Noted.

 

[Treacle Toes]

This thread is in danger of failing the Bechdel test.

Yeah, silly little things that we are, can't even do feminism right.

 

[trashpony]

The more I get involved in feminism, the more depressed I get. The more I read stories about women and girls who have been trafficked and prostituted, raped as spoils of wars, watched their sisters die in childbirth and cut in childhood, murdered in utero for being female, have no access to clean and safe toilet facilities because they get raped and sexually assaulted, the more I realise we live in a world where women are hated. When I am hated. Me. Purely because I was born as a woman.

And it's not enough for men to say that they don't do that stuff. Other men do. Other men kill two women a week in the UK. Other men shout at women in the street and grope them on the tube and assault them in bars.

The only way we will change the status quo is if men stand up and say it's not okay. And tell other men that it's not okay. But as long as they're caught up in defending themselves from perceived attack - telling women that they're not like that and hang on what about this and I think you've got this bit wrong, nothing will ever change. NOTHING.

Women hold up half the sky. We really need men to start giving a shit when their side is attacking our side.

 

[Edie]

This thread is in danger of failing the Bechdel test.

What does this mean?

 

[Treacle Toes]

What does this mean?

It means he is really clever and hahaha we don't know we are born.
Bechdel test - Wikipedia

 

[8ball]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached the apex of the thread.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Well if a man says so it must be true.

 

[Santino]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached the apex of the thread.

What are you trying to achieve?

 

[friendofdorothy]

I’ve been thinking about this a bit.

It’s an example of one of the ways in which women are co-opted and coerced into supporting the old systems and channels.

Conversation, everyone is getting along, there’s some low level flirting and joshing...

A woman says something a bit outre, perhaps some overly colourful language or an out and out piss take of one of the blokes (depending on the company, choose the point on the spectrum accordingly)

There a slight pause for the reaction, drawing in of breath, muttered “ooh!”s or slap down response banter. The men in particular will step in to indicate the parameters and boundaries that have been breached.

But here’s the thing: some of the women will take their cue from the male response, will learn from this, it will add it to the sum of their knowledge and understanding about what is and is not acceptable for the men.

For some women, it will be about battle lines and frontiers, where to tackle the deeper issue, for others it will be about what they need to stay away from, be quiet about. But some of those women will actually stand with the men. They don’t want to be scolded, teased, have the piss taken out of them, or be considered The Enemy by men, so instead they agree with the men, support them, side with them for the sake of safety.

Even now, I encounter women even quite young women who seem to be very supportive of the patriarchy and men’s behaviour at the expense of their own. And they seem to feel as righteous as the men do about this stuff. They seem to feel that because they understand and support men, they’re somehow more than “just” a woman.

I encounter this kind of insidious female support for the patriarchy more frequently than I’d like to. It was pretty common when I was younger (I was guilty of it myself to some extent, which is why I recognise it) but I’d have hoped it was less common now than it is.

You make some really good points. Having not lived with a man forever I feel I'm less familiar with some of the behavoiur you talk about. It always surprises me when women come out with sexist rubbish or tolerate terrible behaviour from men. But I understand what you are saying.

So a man crying “sexism” on a feminist thread looks to me a lot like a man falling into a default setting of trying to identify and locate and support the women who might support the patriarchy. I suspect that men don’t even realise they’re doing it.

I think you are being generous when you say men don't realise they are doing it. I'm sure there are loads of posters who do it on purpose.

Qualifier not all men not all women etc.

yes of course.

 

[scifisam]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have reached the apex of the thread.

The point at which almost all women and most of the men reading it think oh for fuck's sake please stop making a feminism thread about men?

 

[Sue]

The point at which almost all women and most of the men reading it think oh for fuck's sake please stop making a feminism thread about men?

Nadir more like.

 

[kabbes]

Yeah, silly little things that we are, can't even do feminism right.

Who was blaming you, either individually or as a group? It just is what it is. TC has a lot of the blame for it.

 

[Edie]

It means he is really clever and hahaha we don't know we are born.
Bechdel test - Wikipedia

Ah I see. Thing is quite honestly I know kabbes and I trust his motive, and it will be in support of the women talking here and in frustration that the discussion has been pushed towards being focused on men (esp individual men). I bet you.

I’m still interested in talking about how society could be structured better for women. Come the revolution or come whatever tbf. I’m wondering if a big shift might come when automation means that the prospect of even nearly full employment becomes ridiculous. Then, the decision will be ‘everyone works a three or four day week’ or there’s some kind of Universal Income. I’m wondering if that might give time & opportunity for caring for neighbours and children and the elderly in a way that could be recognised or recompensed better?

(If this is a really stupid idea then go gently, at least I’m trying to suggest stuff!).

 

[friendofdorothy]

I am more comfortable discussing (and dissing) a vaguely non-specific entity known as 'the patriarchy, because it primarily equates with power...but feel less inclined to be confrontational to individual men (a mix of being cowardly but also socialised from birth to put other people's needs before my own). But, when I initially discovered feminist politics, it was this very personal sphere (the personal is the political) where, as well as being fucked over by The Man, we were also fucked over by the man...who abused us, beat us, raped and scared us (while the Yorkshire Ripper and Cambridge rapist were terrorising women, we marched to 'reclaim the night', created refuges.

Yes. I think many posters here are a bit to young to remember the everyday sexism of police and media that lead to a murderer not being caught for years and more women attacked and killed. Its worth repeating about all this stuff. I still hear men saying of course 'they' are not like that personally, as if that means its its not true of other men, of the police, of the systems of justice etc. Why don't I hear more men saying 'what is the issue? 'what is womens experience of that' and 'how do we fight that too'

I can say, with some certainty, that many of our achievements have happened when we have had a degree of female autonomy, without male input.

Yes at the very first womens conference in the uk in 71 I heard the women had to leave to get away from men who were controlling the agenda and sit together outside in order to talk about stuff they wanted to voice.

Perhaps a serious discussion about feminism simply isn't possible on an open forum?

In other words, to be perfectly honest, it would probably suit me if the men would kindly fuck off for a bit...although I don't expect this to happen, nor am I pointing fingers (overmuch)...but ya know, the idea of being supportive...

Perhaps the men of urban can simple never shut up or stop interupting long enough. Bet one of them will pop up soon to say they can

*disclaimer* not all men not all women etc (thanks SheilaNaGig!)

 

[baldrick]

The more I get involved in feminism, the more depressed I get. The more I read stories about women and girls who have been trafficked and prostituted, raped as spoils of wars, watched their sisters die in childbirth and cut in childhood, murdered in utero for being female, have no access to clean and safe toilet facilities because they get raped and sexually assaulted, the more I realise we live in a world where women are hated. When I am hated. Me. Purely because I was born as a woman.

And it's not enough for men to say that they don't do that stuff. Other men do. Other men kill two women a week in the UK. Other men shout at women in the street and grope them on the tube and assault them in bars.

The only way we will change the status quo is if men stand up and say it's not okay. And tell other men that it's not okay. But as long as they're caught up in defending themselves from perceived attack - telling women that they're not like that and hang on what about this and I think you've got this bit wrong, nothing will ever change. NOTHING.

Women hold up half the sky. We really need men to start giving a shit when their side is attacking our side.

This. So much this. The older I get, the more I think Greer was right when she said women have very little idea how much men hate them.