Feminism - where are the threads?

[friendofdorothy]

I’m still interested in talking about how society could be structured better for women. Come the revolution or come whatever tbf. I’m wondering if a big shift might come when automation means that the prospect of even nearly full employment becomes ridiculous. Then, the decision will be ‘everyone works a three or four day week’ or there’s some kind of Universal Income. I’m wondering if that might give time & opportunity for caring for neighbours and children and the elderly in a way that could be recognised or recompensed better?.

yeh! why not! Its a lovely idea.

There used to be talk about how increasing wealth and mechanisation allowing everybody to work part time, back in the 70s. Before Thatcherism routed the wealth to the top of society and pissed our North sea oil wealth up the wall and destroyed the power of unions to demand any conditions.

I can't imagine such a change happening but hey I couldn't imagine the fall of the Belin Wall or the public social acceptibility of homosexuality happening in my lifetime either, but they did. Things can change - how can we make any change happen the way it can suit the most people?

Families, the concept of marriage, ideas of parenting have all utterly changed in my life time too.

Who was it who said something about 'being the change'?

 

[friendofdorothy]

This. So much this. The older I get, the more I think Greer was right when she said women have very little idea how much men hate them.

Not right about everything -but right about that. Reading the Female Eunuch transformed my teenage self's ideas.

I questioned why women were being told to stay indoors at night before the Yorkshire Ripper was caught rather than men. It seemed publically acceptible that male sexuality was essentially based on abusing women and girls eg Gary Glitter, Saville, Hugh Hefner.

*disclaimer* not all men not all women etc

 

[Edie]

This. So much this. The older I get, the more I think Greer was right when she said women have very little idea how much men hate them.

But why?

 

[friendofdorothy]

But why?

Very good question - why do they hate us? this is at the essence of feminism. Indiviuals may love each - but the systems still reinforce that 'hatred'

I used to think it was about control of female behaviour.

On a more one -one level has anyone had a man chat them up/court them - only to turn utterly hateful, even violent if turned down or rejected? is this the essence of that hate? seems to be about possession to me. I've ideas but no answers - anyone else?

*Disclaimer* not all men not all women etc

 

[8ball]

Nadir more like.

Thanks for pointing things out for the... less perceptive in the class.

 

[Santino]

Thanks for pointing things out for the... less perceptive in the class.

Give it a fucking rest you tedious bore.

 

[baldrick]

But why?

I don't know. That's a great question.

I assume it's necessary in some way, in order for men to hold onto their sense of superiority and feel justified in it. For patriarchy to work, women have to be 'other'. We can't be seen as fully human or the whole edifice comes down. There's no reason why you should treat fellow humans in such an unequal way is there, not really. So for men to feel ok about taking a place in society that isn't really theirs, they need a bullshit reason to justify it.

Maybe.

 

[Sue]

Thanks for pointing things out for the... less perceptive in the class.

Always a pleasure to help you out, 8ball.

 

[8ball]

Always a pleasure to help you out, 8ball.

I do tend to forget how some struggle with sarcasm.

I’m sure kabbes is feeling suitably chided for his egregious misogyny.

Appalling stuff. Bechdel indeed!

 

[Treacle Toes]

I've thought about this question a lot over the years and whilst it most definitely is about control, power, narcissism and the joy/privilege of that for some I always do wonder just how much it has to do with actually hating and resenting what it is to be a 'man' and their own condition too for others?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But why?

fwiw I think what Greer said is bollocks. I've thought about it pretty hard before and it doesn't ring true at all. Men and women both need each other in a basic reproductive sense, and when you need someone you can resent them sometimes - that works both ways of course. Beyond that, I really don't think Greer's assertion is right at all. Some men hate women, sure, but as a general and generalisable statement, something containing an essential truth, I think it's total balls. On this and a few other things, I don't think Greer has much of a clue.

 

[Treacle Toes]

If it's true for some it can't be total bollocks or balls IMO....and what about what can be the more unconcious, indoctrinated and reinforced nature of bigotry...the fact that people can believe they aren't prejudiced but actually are if they explore their associations and biases?

 

[8ball]

fwiw I think what Greer said is bollocks. I've thought about it pretty hard before and it doesn't ring true at all.

Yeah, well you’re wrong.

 

[Sue]

I do tend to forget how some struggle with sarcasm.

Maybe with a bit more work you'll master it yet.

 

[Santino]

fwiw I think what Greer said is bollocks. I've thought about it pretty hard before and it doesn't ring true at all. Men and women both need each other in a basic reproductive sense, and when you need someone you can resent them sometimes - that works both ways of course. Beyond that, I really don't think Greer's assertion is right at all. Some men hate women, sure, but as a general and generalisable statement, something containing an essential truth, I think it's total balls. On this and a few other things, I don't think Greer has much of a clue.

I think social media is good evidence that Greer is onto something.

 

[Santino]

Yeah, well you’re wrong.

No one will think the less of you for stopping posting. You can simply stop without needing to win a point.

 

[friendofdorothy]

fwiw I think what Greer said is bollocks. I've thought about it pretty hard before and it doesn't ring true at all. Men and women both need each other in a basic reproductive sense, and when you need someone you can resent them sometimes - that works both ways of course. Beyond that, I really don't think Greer's assertion is right at all. Some men hate women, sure, but as a general and generalisable statement, something containing an essential truth, I think it's total balls. On this and a few other things, I don't think Greer has much of a clue.

May be, but how do we still explain the levels of hassassment, rape, domestic abuse, coercive control, leading to the fact that 2 women on average are murdered a week in this country? There is a level of hate here that was easy to see reflected in the media, policing and law.

And what about the common experience:

has anyone had a man chat them up/court them - only to turn utterly hateful, even violent if turned down or rejected? ...

*Disclaimer* not all men not all women etc

 

[Edie]

fwiw I think what Greer said is bollocks. I've thought about it pretty hard before and it doesn't ring true at all. Men and women both need each other in a basic reproductive sense, and when you need someone you can resent them sometimes - that works both ways of course. Beyond that, I really don't think Greer's assertion is right at all. Some men hate women, sure, but as a general and generalisable statement, something containing an essential truth, I think it's total balls. On this and a few other things, I don't think Greer has much of a clue.

I kind of agree. It doesn’t feel like hate, but it feels like men think they are owed something by women. Something they’re entitled to. And for some men if they don’t get that thing (what? respect or deference or sex or something) then they get nasty. Now that’s an exceedingly common experience for women. Ubiquitous I’d say.

Sometimes it’s as simple as a man will talk over you and you stop speaking and they carry on (my ex does this utterly routinely I’ve noticed), to the unspoken threat that a man can always get nasty if you turn him down once too often, to men who just take what they want with violence. It’s not hate unless they are denied but it’s hate very quickly if they are. I’ve seen that. And he can be being jovial right up til that point, or again afterwards. My ex once caught a cab up from town from drinking to slap me round the back of my head cos I wasn’t answering my phone (I’d genuinely not heard it it was on silent) and then he got the same cab back (he’d asked it to wait!!!). That’s entitlement. He felt entitled to be answered.

 

[Treacle Toes]

ffs Edie How horrible

What do you think was behind him becoming that 'entitled' and understand his entitlement to mean in that situation and behaviour? Because from where I am sitting that certainly wasn't love or respect...

 

[8ball]

Maybe with a bit more work you'll master it yet.

Yes, judging the degree of cognitive function in your audience seems to be the trick.

 

[baldrick]

fwiw I think what Greer said is bollocks. I've thought about it pretty hard before and it doesn't ring true at all. Men and women both need each other in a basic reproductive sense, and when you need someone you can resent them sometimes - that works both ways of course. Beyond that, I really don't think Greer's assertion is right at all. Some men hate women, sure, but as a general and generalisable statement, something containing an essential truth, I think it's total balls. On this and a few other things, I don't think Greer has much of a clue.

Then how do you explain male violence towards women?

If it's not hate fuelling fgm, rape, murder, DV, etc etc then what is it?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

fwiw I think what Greer said is bollocks. I've thought about it pretty hard before and it doesn't ring true at all. Men and women both need each other in a basic reproductive sense, and when you need someone you can resent them sometimes - that works both ways of course. Beyond that, I really don't think Greer's assertion is right at all. Some men hate women, sure, but as a general and generalisable statement, something containing an essential truth, I think it's total balls. On this and a few other things, I don't think Greer has much of a clue.

I used to think it was bollocks. I now understand that it’s true.

I’m reluctant to say this, but I’m going to : I can appreciate that objectively it seems like it can’t possibly be true, but once you have experienced it subjectively, there is not doubt, none at all, that men really do hate women. And it shocks me over and over again: every time I’m reminded of it or made to face it again, it shocks me again.


ETA Shocked in the sense that it’s a shocking thing to experience, not because I’m surprised in any way.

 

[8ball]

Then how do you explain male violence towards women?

On average men are a little more violent, so at the extreme end of the curve (and the extreme end of the violence), men are hugely more represented. Just like how men suffer a lot more violence from men than from women.

The overall majority of men aren't being violent towards anyone, but if you take the proportion of humans generally who commit violent acts, most of them (almost all) are men.

I don't personally think Greer was entirely wrong, tbf, there's a huge amount of culturally-embedded misogyny, but male violence towards women can to a large extent just be explained by... male violence.

Imo, disclaimers etc.

 

[8115]

Yes, judging the degree of cognitive function in your audience seems to be the trick.

There's a discussion about men hating women and someone has just spoken about something quite deep and you feel the need to come back with this? Seriously?

 

[8ball]

There's a discussion about men hating women and someone has just spoken about something quite deep and you feel the need to come back with this? Seriously?

Sometimes multiple conversations go on at once. You'll get the hang of it.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

May be, but how do we still explain the levels of hassassment, rape, domestic abuse, coercive control, leading to the fact that 2 women on average are murdered a week in this country? There is a level of hate here that was easy to see reflected in the media, policing and law.

And what about the common experience:


*Disclaimer* not all men not all women etc

And I really do feel it as a noticeably different thing when I meet a man who genuinely and sincerely and deeply does admire and respect women. I guess my default setting is a kind if instinctive wariness, which is then confounded when the... spite...? isn’t there.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

On average men are a little more violent, so at the extreme end of the curve (and the extreme end of the violence), men are hugely more represented. Just like how men suffer a lot more violence from men than from women.

The overall majority of men aren't being violent towards anyone, but if you take the proportion of humans generally who commit violent acts, most of them (almost all) are men.

I don't personally think Greer was entirely wrong, tbf, there's a huge amount of culturally-embedded misogyny, but male violence towards women can to a large extent just be explained by... male violence.

Imo, disclaimers etc.

But even if you've never experienced male violence, the underlying nastiness is there

 

[Treacle Toes]

We've been talking about the nature, nurture and causes of the need for 'control/being controlling' here at home tonight because of this conversation...

I think anxiety is a large part of it...anxiety and a lack of self esteem...a need to feel in control, focused, transformed and projected...

 

[8ball]

But even if you've never experienced male violence, the underlying nastiness is there

I was just dealing with baldrick ‘s question. In terms of a kind of default underlying nastiness, what kind of proportion of men would you say that was coming from?

 

[Athos]

I don't think I'm personally well acquainted with any men who hate women. But I am with a hell of a lot who are utterly contemptuous of them ‐ seeing women as lesser beings, good only for fucking and waiting on them. And it's a vicious cycle, the more they are contemptuous, the easier to justify dominating, and the more they dominate, the easier it is to hold women in contempt.