Feminism - where are the threads?

[Athos]

I'm reading with interest.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

On the back of a friends comment on facebook on IWD this year about very few people identifying as feminists in UK, I asked a load of people randomly in my address book, because I thought 'nearly everyone I know identifies as a feminist'

in that random selection, which was more female and NB than male, only one male came back and said 'yes' [and I know he's always said he was a feminist since the '80's], a few males came back and said 'yes I suppose so...what does it mean, though?' and some said they'd never been asked before

Etc.

 

[Sweet FA]

Yep, I'm reading.

 

[killer b]

killer b While I’m sorry that you’re feeling uncomfortable about some of the things you’re reading (see, automatic habitual emotional support there...) I’m also really glad that you’re allowing yourself to feel uncomfortable. Too often, for reasons that are either/or/and/also subtle and obvious, men find themselves bumping up against reactions and feelings that make then uncomfortable..... and then they turn away from that, so there is no change. You’re *meant* to feel uncomfortable! Because it’s constricting and stupid! When we feel discomfort, that’s a sign that we need to make some kind of change.

Yeah, I learned a while ago (although I don't always pay attention) that the discomfort is often a sign you should be interrogating something more thoroughly rather than looking away.

My partner's recent serious illness has highlighted how much I normally rely on her for emotional support - and of course the few friends I have spoken to in her absence are all women. How do you start creating emotionally connected relationships with other men at 41 though? Or how do you change long-standing friendships which rotate around conversations about music and arguments about politics into something more rounded and nourishing?

(apols if this turns the thread into one about MEN/ME, but I guess the flipside of how to tackle our over-reliance on women's emotional labour is how to help men take on some of the burden...)

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Yeah, I learned a while ago (although I don't always pay attention) that the discomfort is often a sign you should be interrogating something more thoroughly rather than looking away.

My partner's recent serious illness has highlighted how much I normally rely on her for emotional support - and of course the few friends I have spoken to in her absence are all women. How do you start creating emotionally connected relationships with other men at 41 though? Or how do you change long-standing friendships which rotate around conversations about music and arguments about politics into something more rounded and nourishing?

(apols if this turns the thread into one about MEN/ME, but I guess the flipside of how to tackle our over-reliance on women's emotional labour is how to help men take on some of the burden...)

This isn’t a ghetto, and that’s a question that occurred to me too, of course: how do men go about improving their existing relationship and forming new ones in adulthood.


But look what you did there killer b : you’ve framed that as “how can women help men do things”. When you could have said “Right I’m off to start a new thread” or it could have been phrased “I’d be interested to know a few opinions from women about what men need to think about when starting this work...”

Not having a go, just pointing out how the status quo is so easily maintained.

 

[killer b]

I didn't mean to frame it as a question to women - as you said, men are also reading the thread...

 

[Steel Icarus]

I'm reading it. Genuinely reluctant to do anything beyond that.

ETA in terms of posting on the thread, not in life

 

[killer b]

I'm also not sure if it should be a separate thread. Rather it could be an opportunity for men to discuss their side of this equation, instead of simply reading and learning about the women's side.

I think reading and learning is important, but there is a danger of holding back too much - we should be participating in an active conversation about how we change things, not simply mute nodding along. Appreciate this is a difficult balance to strike though.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Okay, so what is it that you feel that y’all need in order to develop better healthier friendships with your mates?

What’s getting in the way of open honest emotional exchanges with your men friends?

In what ways is it difficult to start new friendships?

What would you like your friendships with men to be like?

 

[xenon]

Whenever I get the chance I ask my men friends:

When was the last time you had a proper conversation about feminism, sexism, misogyny, gendered products, all that etc?

Some of them will fess up to “never” or “very rarely” or “a really long time ago”. Some admit they’ve never ever had a conversation about it with anyone.

And then if they say “Oh yeah, I do talk about this stuff” I’ll say “And when was the last time you spoke with a man about it? Do you discuss it with your mates?” invariably they admit that they’ve rarely or never talked about sexism and misogyny when men, only with their women friends, sometimes with their sons.

So then I ask them “Please, it’s time for you to be taking about this with each other. Women are sick to death of talking about it and nothing changing. Please talk to each other about this shit; please step up.”

Another bloke reading.

TBH I don't really have conversations IRL like that with anyone. Not in that proper conversation way. Quite probably my life is a bit disfunctionaal on some levels, maybe it's the norm... it is what it is. I do argue / put my opinion out there if a mate says something I consider to be a bit off, sexist, biggotted etc. That's just part of not wanting to be associated as in agreeing with it, feeling wound up because you haven't stood up for something. Not to say that I'm the enlightened one and beyond reproach. More that IME it's unusual for someone in my circle of friends / aquaintences to broach political subjects like this.

/withdraws to the gallery.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We've got to 'ugly women are lucky because men will still pay to put their penis in them' already?

Men who pay for sex are far uglier.

 

[ViolentPanda]

For the record, from what I read about UBI, I believe the trial had run its course, as opposed to that it had "failed" as such. That finding we were talking about earlier being that, unsurprisingly, stopping hassling people about getting a job does not in itself lead to them getting a job.

More interestingly to me (and the journalism could equally have been framed as such), it suggests that the only result of hassling people to get a job is making them unhappy and creating costly bureaucracy.

Bureaucracy's aim is not to create efficient, helpful systems, it's to perpetuate itself, and to increase its hold on power.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Companies are very conscious about their public appearance. This is a way (one of the ways) that things can hopefully improve the situation. Name and shame

Even better when it's a big company that makes a massive deal about its own "corporate social responsibility". Shell have kicked themselves in the arse more than a few times on this - make a big deal (for which read "massive advertising spend") about what they're doing for the "little people", then get caught fucking over women employees in terms of equal pay.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I do see it as different. Yes there is obscene inequality in the world and its something thats needs to change. But I don't accept we need to solve the issue of the inequalities of global capitalism before we can can consider why whether the man sitting next to us at work gets paid more than we do.

Start local, act global.

 

[killer b]

Okay, so what is it that you feel that y’all need in order to develop better healthier friendships with your mates?

What’s getting in the way of open honest emotional exchanges with your men friends?

In what ways is it difficult to start new friendships?

What would you like your friendships with men to be like?

these are big and chewy questions. I'll give them some thought.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nope. I was talking about my experience of posting here over many years, and being many times on the receiving end of such arguments, feeling intimidated, being punched and pounded into the ground and humiliated, spending days, weeks licking my wounds, and following from killer b's post about pulling theory rank. And don't presume to know anything about me, although being patronised and condescended to, being told what you think...

You started as an impressive, erudite poster - something some long-departed arschloche didn't like - and came out the other side even more so.

...indeed being told what you're capable of thinking is something you have to put up with when you're from a poor, uneducated working class background.

Which makes showing someone that their arguments hold no water, even sweeter.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The problem for me with saying that everything is structural and the only answer is to undo capitalism... is that as kabbes has said, that’s going to take a good while. In the meantime, In actually quite short timescales, working within capitalism, advances have been made.

Some oppressed groups have been helped by changes that weren’t about undoing the whole structure. Now those changes have often only benefitted some sections of the oppressed group... but not always and that doesn’t make them meaningless anyway.

I've been having a running argument for over a year now, with a Momentum/Alliance for Workers Liberty member, who insists that structural change NOW should be the only political ambition/target for Labour in govt. He can't understand why relatively "local", or even basic grassroots community change sets an example that can bring about change. Yes, it's long-termist, and no, it doesn't bring down capitalism, but most of these ideologues haven't thought through the consequences of dismantling capitalism "overnight" as opposed to dismantling it slowly. Personally, I prefer the route that doesn't see people in developing countries possibly starving. I prefer the route that gives people the tools and training to look after themselves, to self-govern without an intermediary "ruling class".

 

[ViolentPanda]

What a cunt.

Bet you've got a goatee, or have had one in the past.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why?

He thinks he's hypocrisy-hunting.

 

[sojourner]

at 30 mins they start talking about his critique of a gillette advert (Which advert?)

friendofdorothy - the advert was this Gillette #MeToo razors ad on 'toxic masculinity' gets praise – and abuse and eventually got pulled due to the massive negative (male) reaction.

It's been replaced now by one that features a young white m/c male, with a voiceover saying 'Don't be intimidated by him... by her...by them...', relating to a male boss figure, a young woman in the gym, and a queue of Asian blokes outside a club. This advert is hugely fucking offensive, in so many ways, but yet replaced the one that was really positive

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

I'm also not sure if it should be a separate thread. Rather it could be an opportunity for men to discuss their side of this equation, instead of simply reading and learning about the women's side.

I think reading and learning is important, but there is a danger of holding back too much - we should be participating in an active conversation about how we change things, not simply mute nodding along. Appreciate this is a difficult balance to strike though.

I think the real point is that it's not all that useful for men to discuss these things with women. It would be useful if they discussed it with each other and their sons etc...
I've said it before but I'll say it again, men can see just as plainly as we can how their conditioning around masculinity affects them and their relationships. You lot need to start fixing it.
Discussing it with other oppressed groups will help you further your understanding (so let's have a conversation, feminists can learn from it too and we have a vested interest if we are raising men, so let's talk) but to start fixing it you need to be starting the threads, having awkward conversations and challenging yourselves

 

[mango5]

I'm also not sure if it should be a separate thread. Rather it could be an opportunity for men to discuss their side of this equation, instead of simply reading and learning about the women's side.

I think reading and learning is important, but there is a danger of holding back too much - we should be participating in an active conversation about how we change things, not simply mute nodding along. Appreciate this is a difficult balance to strike though.

It absolutely is worthy of a new thread.
It's certainly not a useful digression any more on a thread about the paucity of feminism threads. As we can see, 'reading and learning' about women's perspective is not a simple skill.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You’re either a fucking slag/an ugly bitch or a lesbian when you turn down a bloke I don’t know why lesbian is said in the same breath as insults either. Weird isn’t it?

And actually there is a relief in getting older that my days of the sort of experiences that Looby describes are behind me (plus I don’t really go out anymore).

But it is so wearing. When you’re out with your friends and you see a man coming over and you don’t know if he’s going to smile and turn away when you say thanks but no thanks or if you’re going to get a mouthful of abuse or worse. You can never really relax; you’re always slightly on guard.

Some men have never been faced with being told "no". The petulance and anger is usually a result of this, with a bit of "this is what it's 'manly' to do" thrown in. Childish, dangerous idiots, the lot of them.

 

[killer b]

It absolutely is worthy of a new thread.
It's certainly not a useful digression any more on a thread about the paucity of feminism threads. As we can see, 'reading and learning' about women's perspective is not a simple skill.

Oh, I dont think it isn't worthy of a new thread - but I got the impression that more male contributions to this thread was wanted and I thought that might be a good way of helping them engage. I appreciate it's a difficult thing to balance though, so maybe not.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

There's an aside here too... The constant battle women face to be heard, and to not to be dismissed, nor their feelings of distress 'splained away or taken as an attack on the men who hold power over us has some very serious consequences.

The distress women face (and is sometimes/often caused by men - my cptsd certainly was) feeds all the way back into how they are treated when it comes to mental health and psychiatry (often at the hands of men).

This tweet popped into my feed the other day (massive content warning for suicide, overdosing, and psychiatric abuse)

Read it and weep about how women are "treated".



The worst medical treatment I've had is psychiatric treatment at the hands of men (the psychiatric field is particularly negligent of women) and some of the best treatment I had was with clinical psychologists (all female).

And this is out of all medical treatment (not just mental health).

 

[mango5]

Oh, I dont think it isn't worthy of a new thread - but I got the impression that more male contributions to this thread was wanted and I thought that might be a good way of helping them engage. I appreciate it's a difficult thing to balance though, so maybe not.

Of course male contributions to the main topic of the thread - Feminism - are welcome. The point is that feminism and related topics are worthy of lots more discussion, but it seems to me that good contributions to thread are not ones which substantially change the subject (especially to a male perspective). Hence spin-off threads such as Feminism and a world designed for men and Feminism and the Gender Pay Gap. FWIW I was sorry that male posters didn't/don't engage more with the idea of Default Man
(edited for linkfail)

 

[SheilaNaGig]

A podcast about the ongoing legacy of the witch hunts on modern women.

https://www.feministcurrent.com/201...u-on-the-suppressed-truth-behind-witch-hunts/



It’s about 45 minutes with Max Dashu, who writes about suppressed histories with a particular focus on gender. She talks about how the witch hunts impact on current issues around women’s speech, sexuality, and other matters.



About Max Dashu

 

[Balbi]

Of course male contributions to the main topic of the thread - Feminism - are welcome. The point is that feminism and related topics are worthy of lots more discussion, but it seems to me that good contributions to thread are not ones which substantially change the subject (especially to a male perspective). Hence spin-off threads such as Feminism and a world designed for men and Feminism and the Gender Pay Gap. FWIW I was sorry that male posters didn't/don't engage more with the idea of Default Man
(edited for linkfail)

Maybe a few of us should bugger off over there and continue the discussion killer b has the beginnings of, because yeah - that's a talk I'd like to have.

(also, bugger off used in a friendly context here and not an aggressive one, just to be clear )

 

[mango5]

You could start the spin-off thread and continue to read, contemplate, question, learn and contribute to this thread. Please don't bugger off, you can do both.

 

[JudithB]

A podcast about the ongoing legacy of the witch hunts on modern women.

PODCAST: Max Dashu reveals the suppressed truth behind the witch hunts (and the implications for women today)



It’s about 45 minutes with Max Dashu, who writes about suppressed histories with a particular focus on gender. She talks about how the witch hunts impact on current issues around women’s speech, sexuality, and other matters.



About Max Dashu

That was really interesting. Thanks for posting.

"Take her, not me!" We still see a lot of that behaviour these days