Feminism - where are the threads?

[JudithB]

Could be anything. But think “I can’t be what I can’t see” except on the scale of the full spectrum of behaviour, not just job aspiration.

It applies to both men and women and about men and women too, of course.

Yes I thought it must be something around this. I was serving dinner whilst snatching a moment to reply before. Which had me thinking I am serving the dinner because I always serve the dinner at the weekends. This is not because I am the only one capable of serving the dinner. But in my household women serve dinner when everyone is home. Does this mean my sons will expect their partners if female, to serve the dinner?

Or is it greater than what they see at home? At their friends' houses I know husbands often do all the cooking. Therefore societally my sons are not conditioned to think all women always serve dinner

 

[kabbes]

Yes, that’s exactly the kind of questioning that this kind of thinking about tacit learning raises. Cultural assumptions are difficult to break because people don’t even notice that they exist.

Out of interest, what would it take for you to simply tell one of your sons that it’s his turn to do dinner this time?

 

[kabbes]

For that matter, what would it take for him to think to offer?

 

[JudithB]

Yes, that’s exactly the kind of questioning that this kind of thinking about tacit learning raises. Cultural assumptions are difficult to break because people don’t even notice that they exist.

Out of interest, what would it take for you to simply tell one of your sons that it’s his turn to do dinner this time?

They do it during the week. I have put myself firmly in the matriarchal role at the weekends (and bank holidays). We are all together and I do enjoy it. They clear up and the eldest can now load the dishwasher. The youngest wants to do everything the eldest does so drips sauce all over the floor trying to copy big bro. The middle one sits on his arse waiting to be asked to do anything. A cunning ploy I almost admire.

Motherhood should still allow for women to do things she enjoys. I enjoy what is a family ritual.

 

[kabbes]

They do it during the week. I have put myself firmly in the matriarchal role at the weekends (and bank holidays). We are all together and I do enjoy it. They clear up and the eldest can now load the dishwasher. The youngest wants to do everything the eldest does so drips sauce all over the floor trying to copy big bro. The middle one sits on his arse waiting to be asked to do anything. A cunning ploy I almost admire.

Motherhood should still allow for women to do things she enjoys. I enjoy what is a family ritual.

There’s nothing wrong with any of that, of course, but it’s still a perfect example of embedded cultural assumptions that are not even identified as something for questioning, let alone questioned. I’m thinking in particular of your final paragraph, which begs the question. Several, in fact. What told you what “motherhood” looks like, how did you actually come to enjoy the things you enjoy and where did the family ritual actually come from and why?

 

[Supine]

I can't think of any of my friends who follow the traditional nuclear family layout with women doing the home stuff and the man going out working. Tbh I find that an old attitude - although I do know it still exists in some places.

Pay equality is a different matter. I've been watching the relative pay at various companies to see how things change now that it's published for medium and large scale companies. I'd hope after time we can see a real improvement in equality now that the figures are published.

 

[JudithB]

There’s nothing wrong with any of that, of course, but it’s still a perfect example of embedded cultural assumptions that are not even identified as something for questioning, let alone questioned. I’m thinking in particular of your final paragraph, which begs the question. Several, in fact. What told you what “motherhood” looks like, how did you actually come to enjoy the things you enjoy and where did the family ritual actually come from and why?

Yes I was going to expand but unless one is saying something interesting I find it's best to shut up before boredom sets in.

Definitely the Oxo Family

My mother worked full time and my father prepared all meals.

Motherhood should look however one wants it to. It is not a form of masochism. I believe in today's society motherhood has a role in breaking down hierarchical concepts.



It is a joy to be able to talk sensibly and practically about women’s lives without upholding stereotypes about divisions between women and I am thankful that Urban75 is a place it seems women wish to do this.

 

[mojo pixy]

it can usually happen in the end. after a few bannings

 

[friendofdorothy]

Hi Jude, I just wanted to say welcome to urban!

Just catching up with this thread, it may take a while to read all 12 pages.

I'm old enough to remember the equal pay act and equal education act coming in. My reading on the subject was all so long ago, along with CR sessions, reclaim the night marches, and Greenham. I'm trying to get to grips with what it actually means now. Not sure that much has changed.

I always love to hear more about feminist stuff.

 

[JudithB]

I can't think of any of my friends who follow the traditional nuclear family layout with women doing the home stuff and the man going out working. Tbh I find that an old attitude - although I do know it still exists in some places.

Pay equality is a different matter. I've been watching the relative pay at various companies to see how things change now that it's published for medium and large scale companies. I'd hope after time we can see a real improvement in equality now that the figures are published.

Yes it is completely outdated but the pay gap does not reflect this.

 

[JudithB]

it can usually happen in the end. after a few bannings

I can assure you I have never been banned from any site and I am not the poster you are looking for

 

[Supine]

Yes it is completely outdated but the pay gap does not reflect this.

Fingers crossed the naming and shaming for companies helps matters

 

[JudithB]

Hi Jude, I just wanted to say welcome to urban!

Just catching up with this thread, it may take a while to read all 12 pages.

I'm old enough to remember the equal pay act and equal education act coming in. My reading on the subject was all so long ago, along with CR sessions, reclaim the night marches, and Greenham. I'm trying to get to grips with what it actually means now. Not sure that much has changed.

I always love to hear more about feminist stuff.

A pleasure to meet you. What name should I call you?

Unfortunately until we revisit the past gains we cannot admit/accept how little we have progressed.

Do you have Netflix? The documentary "She's Beautiful When She's Angry" is a joy to watch. It is about the US women's liberation movements. But as we know they were happening concurrently over the western world it still speaks to us all.

 

[JudithB]

Fingers crossed the naming and shaming for companies helps matters

Direct action! I like this idea. I may not be the person to organise it beyond what we are already being told in the media. Would there be people on the Direct Action subforums who would pick up the baton on this one? If we knew how insidious it was and not just in terms of unequal pay but also segregated work, it could be an awakening.

 

[Supine]

Direct action! I like this idea. I may not be the person to organise it beyond what we are already being told in the media. Would there be people on the Direct Action subforums who would pick up the baton on this one? If we knew how insidious it was and not just in terms of unequal pay but also segregated work, it could be an awakening.

It's now law so no action needed. You can find a companies performance here:

Gender pay gap: What is the pay gap at your company?

 

[JudithB]

It's now law so no action needed. You can find a companies performance here:

Gender pay gap: What is the pay gap at your company?

I checked the first company I could think of and it says there is a pay gap. So why no action needed?

 

[Supine]

I checked the first company I could think of and it says there is a pay gap. So why no action needed?

I didn't say no action needed. I said that the availability of this information will hopefully reduce the difference due to public shaming.

 

[friendofdorothy]

A pleasure to meet you. What name should I call you?

Unfortunately until we revisit the past gains we cannot admit/accept how little we have progressed.

Do you have Netflix? The documentary "She's Beautiful When She's Angry" is a joy to watch. It is about the US women's liberation movements. But as we know they were happening concurrently over the western world it still speaks to us all.

Hi, some round here call me FoD but I prefer Dorothy. I don't have netflix, but i've just watched the trailer.

 

[kabbes]

I didn't say no action needed. I said that the availability of this information will hopefully reduce the difference due to public shaming.

How does that work, then?

 

[Supine]

How does that work, then?

Companies are very conscious about their public appearance. This is a way (one of the ways) that things can hopefully improve the situation. Name and shame

 

[JudithB]

Hi, some round here call me FoD but I prefer Dorothy. I don't have netflix, but i've just watched the trailer.

A pleasure to meet you Dorothy

 

[JudithB]

I didn't say no action needed. I said that the availability of this information will hopefully reduce the difference due to public shaming.

 

[Supine]

So find a company on there and tweet them asking what they are doing about it

 

[kabbes]

Companies are very conscious about their public appearance. This is a way (one of the ways) that things can hopefully improve the situation. Name and shame

Is that why CEOs are no longer paid millions of pounds, then, after all the public shaming that’s happened about it?

Is it why Amazon now pays lots of tax?

Is it bollocks. Companies couldn’t give a shit about these things.

 

[Supine]

Companies couldn’t give a shit about these things.

Maybe the CEO won't take action on CEO wages but maybe they will on their minions pay gap.

 

[kabbes]

Maybe the CEO won't take action on CEO wages but maybe they will on their minions pay gap.

Why will they?

 

[Supine]

Why will they?

Companies honestly do think about their public perception. It affects sales so it affects their bottom line.

The more noise made about it the more they have to listen.

 

[kabbes]

Companies honestly do think about their public perception. It affects sales so it affects their bottom line.

The more noise made about it the more they have to listen.

There are plenty of ways to manage public perception that don’t involve increasing your wage bill by 20%

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I didn't say no action needed. I said that the availability of this information will hopefully reduce the difference due to public shaming.

Why? Countries with much more vocal movements and laws about gender pay gaps than the UK, such as Scandinavian countries, still have big gender pay gaps. This is structural stuff. It doesn't get changed by ceos deciding they're going to be nicer cos some figures have been published.

At best you get almost meaningless gestures like Finland's requirement for female board members, which helps only a tiny number of already rich women who didn't need any help and does fuck all for anyone else.

 

[Supine]

There are plenty of ways to manage public perception that don’t invoke increasing your wage bill by 20%

True. And I'm not saying this publishing is the whole answer.

A friend of mine is a female engineer in a well known engineering company. Somebody accidently emailed everyone's pay in a spreadsheet some years ago. Because the company was shamed with this my friend and all other females in the company got an immediate pay rise and it was back dated to when she started working for them. She managed to buy a decent car from her windfall