Feminism - where are the threads?

[kabbes]

But there is still male/female inbalance in this country and most others that needs a 'structural' solution too. How do you suggest we address that?

To be honest, I wish I knew. Slowly, I suspect.

 

[friendofdorothy]

I think female pay parity is possibly more achievable than solving all the capitalist inequalities in the world.

This is 2019, 50 years after the equality act - change has been too slow already.
Women lets speed it up! there must be some way we can use the equal pay act stats to put pressure on companies. Consumer boycotts/twitter shaming/ chaining ourselves dressed as suffragettes to their head offices?

I haven't felt much solidarity from many men on urban yet over the equal pay issue (awaits male angry shit storm. . .)

 

[friendofdorothy]

In their own countries. I’m asking (semi-rhetorically) why such wealth disparity perpetuates across people generally? You don’t need to view male/female disparity as existing as somehow distinct from that process.

I do see it as different. Yes there is obscene inequality in the world and its something thats needs to change. But I don't accept we need to solve the issue of the inequalities of global capitalism before we can can consider why whether the man sitting next to us at work gets paid more than we do.

 

[Edie]

I like how kabbes is being demanded to solve the structural cause of pay inequality for the feminist cause Come on kabbes your not trying hard enough

 

[JudithB]

I like how kabbes is being demanded to solve the structural cause of pay inequality for the feminist cause Come on kabbes your not trying hard enough

But he's a man! We all know men know how to do feminism better than anyone.

Kabbes, I hope you know I'm pulling your leg.

 

[JudithB]

I think female pay parity is possibly more achievable than solving all the capitalist inequalities in the world.

This is 2019, 50 years after the equality act - change has been too slow already.
Women lets speed it up! there must be some way we can use the equal pay act stats to put pressure on companies. Consumer boycotts/twitter shaming/ chaining ourselves dressed as suffragettes to their head offices?

I haven't felt much solidarity from many men on urban yet over the equal pay issue (awaits male angry shit storm. . .)

I think there is a lot of denial. Inequality in pay has been based on women taking maternity leave and time out to raise children. We are told we cannot be paid a different salary for the same job as it is illegal. But we all know it happens.

The link shared earlier was interesting. We could choose well known large British employers and see how they fair. Go for those with the largest inequality first. Then start asking them to tell us why.

 

[JudithB]

I'm a real big of Jessica Eaton and the work she does for both men and women (more about Jessica here)

All of Jessica's blogs are interesting, but her recent one about encouraging women who are victims of rape NOT to report it, was frankly jarring.

Victim Focus | Blog |

I am not sure that link takes you to the blog post I refer to - if it's not, search rape and the title is
Why I stopped encouraging women to disclose to police or doctors after rape

I think Jessica makes some very valid points. What are your thoughts on how and why reactions to rape have not changed in recent years, however progressive we have become?

 

[Sue]

I think there is a lot of denial. Inequality in pay has been based on women taking maternity leave and time out to raise children.

Not necessarily. I've no children and a number of times have discovered a less experienced and less qualified man is earning significantly more than me.

 

[Humberto]

Society (on whatever scale) needs to re balance and re-calibrate societal values. Once again destructive capitalism fuels a mental breathless race where we all lose except a small percentage who are held up as the deserving.

 

[8ball]

I like how kabbes is being demanded to solve the structural cause of pay inequality for the feminist cause Come on kabbes your not trying hard enough

Had some potential, but always struck me as lazy, that one.

 

[Celyn]

I think female pay parity is possibly more achievable than solving all the capitalist inequalities in the world.

This is 2019, 50 years after the equality act - change has been too slow already.
Women lets speed it up! there must be some way we can use the equal pay act stats to put pressure on companies. Consumer boycotts/twitter shaming/ chaining ourselves dressed as suffragettes to their head offices?

I haven't felt much solidarity from many men on urban yet over the equal pay issue (awaits male angry shit storm. . .)

For many years, Glasgow City Council was failing in its legal equal pay obligations with regard to women workers. A Labour-controlled council, with the relevant unions doing sweet FA about it. Appalling. You* wouldn't really think it possible.

* edit - "you", meaning "I".

 

[JudithB]

Society (on whatever scale) needs to re balance and re-calibrate societal values. Once again destructive capitalism fuels a mental breathless race where we all lose except a small percentage who are held up as the deserving.

I think we need to name it for what it is - Patriarchal Capitalism

 

[8ball]

I think we need to name it for what it is - Patriarchal Capitalism

PC for short. And it's gone mad!

 

[friendofdorothy]

For many years, Glasgow City Council was failing in its legal equal pay obligations with regard to women workers. A Labour-controlled council, with the relevant unions doing sweet FA about it. Appalling. You* wouldn't really think it possible.

* edit - "you", meaning "I".

several councils have been held to account for similar things. The problem lies in that a lot of organisations its not apparent what people get paid and that pay is so private and confidential. We need men to be prepared to say how much they earn. Why are we so secretive about money?

 

[Celyn]

The council is no longer Labour-controlled, and the situation is getting sorted out now, (and will cost a fortune, with implications for council finances and services provision etc) but it's revolting that unions were happy to throw women workers under a bus and, as you say, the same shenanigans probably been happening in far too many other places too.

 

[scifisam]

Let me put it another way: why is there still such a massive pay gap between the average wage of a Briton and the average wage of an Afghani or a Ugandan? Is it because you are unaware that the difference exists? Is it because we collectively think Britons are superior? Or are there deep structural issues to do with ownership and power that don’t go away just because we all decide we’re going to be nice from now on?

But that's whataboutery that's easily debunked. Yes, women, and men, in many countries get paid less than people in the UK do for similar jobs. But their living costs are also far lower, so in all honesty it would slightly strange if someone living in an area with living costs of <10pw were paid the same as someone living in an area where the living costs are multitudes higher.

There's Central London Weighting for some jobs in areas like teaching and the civil service. You will hear some people complain about this if they live in an area like Poole where the living costs are about the same, but on average, people accept that you work in central London, you pay more to live, ergo you get a higher wage.

You are basically changing the subject to make it seem like women being paid less in the UK is not important at all.

 

[kabbes]

But that's whataboutery that's easily debunked. Yes, women, and men, in many countries get paid less than people in the UK do for similar jobs. But their living costs are also far lower, so in all honesty it would slightly strange if someone living in an area with living costs of <10pw were paid the same as someone living in an area where the living costs are multitudes higher.

There's Central London Weighting for some jobs in areas like teaching and the civil service. You will hear some people complain about this if they live in an area like Poole where the living costs are about the same, but on average, people accept that you work in central London, you pay more to live, ergo you get a higher wage.

You are basically changing the subject to make it seem like women being paid less in the UK is not important at all.

It’s not whataboutery and it’s not changing the subject. It’s also not saying the pay gap isn’t important. It’s merely pointing out that you aren’t going to fix the pay gap with individual targeted actions to try to make companies play fair when the underlying reasons for the inequality are structural, not individual.

 

[Manter]

Too damn right! It has to be acknowledged that in the main women want to be with their babies and not outsource motherhood. There should be mechanisms in place to allow this to happen. Women are not non-men. Society is not built for our image. I have not searched to see if there is a thread on Caroline Cirado Perez's book which exposes just how little concern there is for women in all areas of society.



The majority of women and girls will be mothers or carers at some stage of their lives, and if this is not respected, made a focus, or not valued, and if our concepts of what constitute work remain limited and blinkered, then this is merely internalised patriarchy, not women-centred politics or feminism. If the women's work is not respected by society, no work done by women has a chance for true equality, working for pay or not, mothers or not.

I’m sorry I know this was days ago but pleas think about your language. Women who use childcare aren’t ‘outsourcing motherhood’ they are still completely and absolutely their child’s mother. They may be forced to leave their child for part of a day- work because they have to, have another caring commitment; or they may leave their child because they want to- they want to work, study, or have time to themselves.

That sort of language is never used about men. So let’s not use it about women.

 

[JudithB]

But are you not pretending a problem does not exist by asking us not to use language that is rarely used about men?

 

[Manter]

I can't think of any of my friends who follow the traditional nuclear family layout with women doing the home stuff and the man going out working. Tbh I find that an old attitude - although I do know it still exists in some places.

Pay equality is a different matter. I've been watching the relative pay at various companies to see how things change now that it's published for medium and large scale companies. I'd hope after time we can see a real improvement in equality now that the figures are published.

Pay equality is an interesting one. I have worked in a couple of places as the data was being pulled together. In one it was used as a really good chance to examine why there was a gap (not a huge gap but a gap nonetheless) and consider what could be done. This year the same company are running some other reports- on age, race where we hold the information (aren’t allowed to in some countries), religion in NI, geography etc.

Other place; gender gap was *huge* and all the effort was put into the narrative explanation you have to submit on the form. Basically it was a ‘what do we say about this to make it go away’

 

[Manter]

But are you not pretending a problem does not exist by asking us not to use language that is rarely used about men?

No absolutely not. I’m asking you to have a think about the prejudices you have internalised. Women don’t outsource motherhood. In the same way words like dad babysitting needs to be used with care- they aren’t daddy daycare, they are parent.

In your example on women working or not, it struck me your examples were within a range you and most others find acceptable- it’s ok for women to work after a year of playing wind the bobbin up. What about women who want to go back to work after 10 days? If it is their choice- genuinely, freely made choice- that’s fine too.

We need to stop judging women for choices we find uncomfortable. And stop using words that suggest there are good choices and unfortunate ‘counter-natural’ ones.

What is much more interesting is that where we are told women have free choice, so many in fact make the same choices. Which raises the question about how free those choices are

 

[Manter]

Another thought on the choice thing. We need to be careful about seeing discussion about structural issues and changes as a criticism of individuals. Large numbers of women make the ‘choice’ to take part time work and lower paid work after having children. How free is that choice, really, given the society we live in? Interesting discussion to be had there.... but it doesn’t mean women who have made that choice as individuals are in any way being criticised or patronised. We can still note that few men make the same choice and that raises all sorts of questions about free choice- the personal is political after all

 

[scifisam]

It’s not whataboutery and it’s not changing the subject. It’s also not saying the pay gap isn’t important. It’s merely pointing out that you aren’t going to fix the pay gap with individual targeted actions to try to make companies play fair when the underlying reasons for the inequality are structural, not individual.

You were literally telling us not to worry about the gender pay gap but to think instead about people in other countries who get paid less. I really don't see how you don't think that's changing the subject.

 

[kabbes]

You were literally telling us not to worry about the gender pay gap but to think instead about people in other countries who get paid less. I really don't see how you don't think that's changing the subject.

I was not doing that and you insisting otherwise isn’t going to change anything. You’ve read what you expected to read, not what’s there.

I was not telling you to think about people in other countries who get paid less. I was asking you why they still get paid less in spite of all the public shaming that goes on. I was also pointing out in the same post that Amazon still don’t pay tax in spite of all the public shaming that goes on. It was a post about why public shaming doesn’t have the effect consumerism tells us it should.

 

[redsquirrel]

Thats not true. Kabbes specifically criticised the GPG. Arguing that something is a structural problem and will require a structural solution is the opposite of whataboutry, it's examining the issue from its core.

 

[Manter]

I think you can easily see why identity politics is a ‘thing’ though. If someone is talking about one thing that centres, say, black people or trans people or women or whatever and people draw parallels that take the core of the conversation away from that. Even if it’s well meant and in some ways logically follows on, the person who was originally trying to be heard feels invisible again.

It’s the issue with the attacks on identity politics. They require others to be actually heard.

 

[kabbes]

I think you can easily see why identity politics is a ‘thing’ though. If someone is talking about one thing that centres, say, black people or trans people or women or whatever and people draw parallels that take the core of the conversation away from that. Even if it’s well meant and in some ways logically follows on, the person who was originally trying to be heard feels invisible again.

It’s the issue with the attacks on identity politics. They require others to be actually heard.

This is true but I don’t think I was remotely not hearing the problem. I’d like to actually tackle it, not just do things that make us feel good but are actually ineffectual. I mean, do the stuff that makes you feel good too but don’t be surprised when it doesn’t work.

 

[Manter]

This is true but I don’t think I was remotely not hearing the problem. I’d like to actually tackle it, not just do things that make us feel good but are actually ineffectual. I mean, do the stuff that makes you feel good too but don’t be surprised when it doesn’t work.

It wasn’t an attack on you- I was more musing as I have just read through the thread. There is a pretty standard narrative that emerges in any discussion of feminism at the moment- opening feminism- talk about borderline MRA stuff- angry interjection that it’s actually all about class- dismissive comment that it’s all identity politics- women try and reassert themselves on the subject of feminism- accusations they are racist- suggestion it’s about class and capitalism with suggestions that they should leave the ‘girl’ stuff and join mainstream/approved leftie debate- women start to get really bitey with everyone persistently derailing/talking over/dismissing them- accusations that they are too emotional/not good allies/ not rigorously grounded in approved Marxist theory. The only thing missing here you get on Twitter is a Home Counties Tory pearls and judgement type/gun-toting Texan republican in a confederate flag bikini suggesting everyone is unladylike and should wear more makeup and then they’d be less bitter. That last bit is transparently gross and easy to dismiss- but actually many women are kind of bored of the rest of it too.

 

[Manter]

And what happens now is a proper political theorist comes along and starts thundering at me about how much I have missed on structural analysis of 19th century feudalism and it’s link to climate change, and until I am au fait with the entire oeuvre of their favoured obscure theorist I have no right to an opinion about my own lived experience. But I’ll miss that bit that because I’ve got to wash the school uniform

 

[scifisam]

Thats not true. Kabbes specifically criticised the GPG. Arguing that something is a structural problem and will require a structural solution is the opposite of whataboutry, it's examining the issue from its core.

But what on earth is the point in that? Does anyone not think it's a structural problem? Do any of us need to be told that?

Nobody here can change the structure. So it's not very helpful to be told not to think about the gender pay gap but instead to think about stuff that's more deep and meaningful and also completely beyond our reach.