Feminism - where are the threads?

[scifisam]

And what happens now is a proper political theorist comes along and starts thundering at me about how much I have missed on structural analysis of 19th century feudalism and it’s link to climate change, and until I am au fait with the entire oeuvre of their favoured obscure theorist I have no right to an opinion about my own lived experience. But I’ll miss that bit that because I’ve got to wash the school uniform

Oh yeah, that's always the most fun part

 

[killer b]

Does that ever happen on here? The other criticism is fair, but people rarely pull theory rank on urban ime. And if they do they're usually called on it

 

[kabbes]

But what on earth is the point in that? Does anyone not think it's a structural problem? Do any of us need to be told that?

Nobody here can change the structure. So it's not very helpful to be told not to think about the gender pay gap but instead to think about stuff that's more deep and meaningful and also completely beyond our reach.

Who’s telling you not to think about the gender pay gap?

 

[Winot]

yeah it would be great to discuss practical suggestions to help - particularly how men can help address this problem.

 

[Winot]

Does that ever happen on here? The other criticism is fair, but people rarely pull theory rank on urban ime. And if they do they're usually called on it

There’s a lot of eye-rolling (from some prolific posters) when anyone naive enough not to have spent hours discussing these issues ventures into P&P

 

[Manter]

Does that ever happen on here? The other criticism is fair, but people rarely pull theory rank on urban ime. And if they do they're usually called on it

Yeah, what Winot says. And there are whole swathes of people who don’t post there having been thoroughly patronised in the past.

 

[redsquirrel]

But what on earth is the point in that? Does anyone not think it's a structural problem? Do any of us need to be told that?

Nobody here can change the structure. So it's not very helpful to be told not to think about the gender pay gap but instead to think about stuff that's more deep and meaningful and also completely beyond our reach.

There are certainly some voices that argue it isn't a structural problem. kabbes specifically raised his point because some felt that the publication of the data with some naming and shaming would result in reduction in the GPG.

That's not being "told not to think about the gender pay gap", anymore than criticising the argument that the best way to reduce the gap is to increase the pay of the highest paid women is. We can change the structure, indeed we constantly change structures and if we really want to tackle gender inequality we have to change structures.

 

[Red Cat]

The words class and capitalism, I understand how they sometimes seem to act to shut down discussion, there's a sense that it's all wrapped up in these words, they can feel blocking. I don't know how we can talk about these structures in a way that keeps them alive as ongoing dynamic processes of relations between people but I don't see how we can talk about feminism without them.

Seems to me, the tension between feminism as everyday experience and the theory needed to make sense of women's oppression is longstanding. I struggle to link the two in a way that feels fruitful. I mean, I have no idea what to do about any of it.

 

[Winot]

There are certainly some voices that argue it isn't a structural problem. kabbes specifically raised his point because some felt that the publication of the data with some naming and shaming would result in reduction in the GPG.

That's not being "told not to think about the gender pay gap", anymore than criticising the argument that the best way to reduce the gap is to increase the pay of the highest paid women is. We can change the structure, indeed we constantly change structures and if we really want to tackle gender inequality we have to change structures.

What do you think the best structures are to change that specifically address the GPG?

 

[Poot]

yeah it would be great to discuss practical suggestions to help - particularly how men can help address this problem.

It's quite difficult because you'd need to listen to every little niggle and we have difficulty getting even the really big stuff taken seriously. But structurally, not assuming that male is the default sex would go a huge way to helping. This, I'm afraid, is a pretty universal viewpoint. Animals are male. Anyone at work is male (businessmen, firemen, train drivers) according to a good chunk of people. Even this morning I used a machine at the gym that I couldn't set to my (averagely small, female) frame. I can't reach the boot of my car when it's open. These things are never, ever set to a default female, are they? Nobody says 'Aah, look at that dog, isn't she lovely?' when they don't know what sex it is. When I ordered some PPE at work the website had two sections: Workwear and Women's Workwear. My steel toe cap boots don't fit because I ordered my size but the male version is bigger.

This stuff is part of the structure. It's arrogant and it's constant and nothing ever, ever has a female default, even my lilac-coloured running watch measures the calories burned by an average man.

I could go on (many would say that I do!) but whilst politics may play a part in it, if we can't get our heads around this very basic stuff, what hope is there?!

 

[killer b]

Yeah, what Winot says. And there are whole swathes of people who don’t post there having been thoroughly patronised in the past.

That's pretty boring, but it's not shouting at people about obscure theorists.

It is a bit of a silo in there, and the same topics have been discussed ad infinitum so - as with feminism threads that follow the same pattern - regular posters can get eyerolly when a thread is following the same well-trodden route it always does. It's not ideal, but it's understandable it happens IMO.

 

[redsquirrel]

What do you think the best structures are to change that specifically address the GPG?

You're going to have to unpick that question before I can answer it.
What do you mean by best? Are you using the government definition of the GPG? A definition which, to go back to a point earlier in the thread, excludes many workers.

 

[Winot]

Thanks Poot. The physical design stuff hadn’t occurred to me at all until recently when I read about this book (Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez – a world designed for men).

 

[Poot]

Thanks Poot. The physical design stuff hadn’t occurred to me at all until recently when I read about this book (Invisible Women by Caroline Criado Perez – a world designed for men).

It's good that this is being noticed now. Honestly, some of us have been talking about it for a while but in a fairly unfocused way, and people just assume that you're just whinging but *nothing* is female default. And I'm a small female so I really notice! And I was aware of CCP's work - she's hit the nail on the head.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Does that ever happen on here? The other criticism is fair, but people rarely pull theory rank on urban ime. And if they do they're usually called on it

Sorry, whut?

The very few times I’ve tried to get into a discussion this is exactly what I’ve experienced. So I just never bother now.

It’s like trying to get a go on the roundabout in the playground and the big kids (almost all of them boys) just keep it spinning far too fast. And even if it slows down enough for me to get get on, they then spin it so fast I either fall off or get too dizzy and want to get off.

It’s absolutely a closed shop. I used to read threads trying to learn enough to join in. Then I just read threads to follow the discussion. Now I suspect that a lot of the political debate happens in PM threads ( it seems much quieter round here these days). I think the big kids have gone off to create a secret clubhouse somewhere. And I reckon that’s why there’s been less of the usual pile on on this thread.

 

[Winot]

You're going to have to unpick that question before I can answer it.
What do you mean by best? Are you using the government definition of the GPG? A definition which, to go back to a point earlier in the thread, excludes many workers.

Just pick one! It's not a trap. I'm just interested in a practical answer that (a) doesn't require the overthrow of the entire capitalist system* and (b) is focussed on women rather than all workers.

(*NB I am not claiming that is not a solution)

 

[Winot]

It's good that this is being noticed now. Honestly, some of us have been talking about it for a while but in a fairly unfocused way, and people just assume that you're just whinging but *nothing* is female default. And I'm a small female so I really notice! And I was aware of CCP's work - she's hit the nail on the head.

I found this essay by Grayson Perry really interesting and challenging
Grayson Perry: The rise and fall of Default Man

 

[kabbes]

Just pick one! It's not a trap. I'm just interested in a practical answer that (a) doesn't require the overthrow of the entire capitalist system* and (b) is focussed on women rather than all workers.

(*NB I am not claiming that is not a solution)

The answer is boring and it fits in with Poot’s point. You have to work continuously and tirelessly to pull people — individual people — up on the 1000001 ways they enable the structures with their assumptions, schema and behaviours. Particularly in relation to gender with respect to this discussion but more widely in respect to all the enabling structures too. If ideas take deep enough root, there is generational shift.

I’m sorry, though, but it doesn’t happen in a handful of years. I wish it did. It takes many generations and you can’t deal with any part of the structure in isolation. We’ve had 50 years of civil rights movement in the US and the race gap there is as wide as it ever was because the division is embedded in more than just individual attitudes to race alone, but in general liberal concepts of the importance of free choice combined with general wide streaks of social conservatism.

 

[seventh bullet]

Sorry, whut?

The very few times I’ve tried to get into a discussion this is exactly what I’ve experienced. So I just never bother now.

It’s like trying to get a go on the roundabout in the playground and the big kids (almost all of them boys) just keep it spinning far too fast. And even if it slows down enough for me to get get on, they then spin it so fast I either fall off or get too dizzy and want to get off.

It’s absolutely a closed shop. I used to read threads trying to learn enough to join in. Then I just read threads to follow the discussion. Now I suspect that a lot of the political debate happens in PM threads ( it seems much quieter round here these days). I think the big kids have gone off to create a secret clubhouse somewhere. And I reckon that’s why there’s been less of the usual pile on on this thread.

I tend to try and share any relevant or worthwhile knowledge on topics than use it as a weapon to do down others. I keep my trap shut on things I don't fully understand and read what others have to say. We all blunder about sometimes and we need robust argument too. That's part of learning. You're tested. Its harshness is not always a bad thing imo. People who try the kind of crap mentioned/complained above, aiming for some unqualified (not in a formal sense) authority, claim exclusivity of comment on some subjects get absolutely slaughtered occasionally. Good.

 

[Red Cat]

Seems to me there's very little political discussion generally because nobody knows what to do. My understanding is that Marxist theory isn't about ideas and education changing minds and changed minds changing systems, but people changing through activity and there's not much of that going on.

 

[Athos]

I think the big kids have gone off to create a secret clubhouse somewhere.

On the plus side, it means the roundabout's free now.

 

[seventh bullet]

Seems to me there's very little political discussion generally because nobody knows what to do. My understanding is that Marxist theory isn't about ideas and education changing minds and changed minds changing systems, but people changing through activity and there's not much of that going on.

Who said strictly Marxist? And this place has been in decline as a place for serious political discussion for some years.

 

[Poot]

I found this essay by Grayson Perry really interesting and challenging
Grayson Perry: The rise and fall of Default Man

Yeah, he gets it. I want to say that it's a shame it had to be written by a man but that would be unfair; it's very insightful. And having spent a week with a female relation of mine who has been so indoctrinated by male gaze/anti feminism/male default shit that she now views every woman as inferior and verges on being a misogynist, I am very aware that you should just take it where you find it. Besides, people are more likely to listen to a man

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I tend to try and share any relevant or worthwhile knowledge on topics than use it as a weapon to do down others. I keep my trap shut on things I don't fully understand and read what others have to say. We all blunder about sometimes and we need robust argument too. That's part of learning. You're tested. Its harshness is not always a bad thing imo. People who try the kind of crap mentioned/complained above, aiming for some unqualified (not in a formal sense) authority, claim exclusivity of comment on some subjects get absolutely slaughtered occasionally. Good.

Patronising. In several ways; and actually, seventh bullet , neatly illustrating my point for me, as well as demonstrating how women get curtailed by men in debate

You’re trying to school me in something I already know (mansplaining)

You’re telling me that you’re not the culprit (not all men).

You’re telling me I’ve misunderstood or misinterpreted things (hysterical exaggerating).

You’re telling me my reaction/interpretation is not really appropriate (overreacting).

And so, QED, the problem must be with me (not the status quo (patriarchy) ).



We have to tolerate (or challenge) this attitude in every single sphere, not only in situations that are very obviously a feminist/sexist situation.

Men * can’t see when they’re part of sexism bingo, because they are the actual bingo grid.




ETA
*Not all men etc. obvs

 

[Red Cat]

Who said strictly Marxist? And this place has been in decline as a place for serious political discussion for some years.

I don't know what you mean by strictly Marxist. It's the political theory I have the most familiarity with and Marxism came up in the criticism of p&p. And I do think the lack of political discussion is linked to the lack of political activity.

 

[Poot]

And what happens now is a proper political theorist comes along and starts thundering at me about how much I have missed on structural analysis of 19th century feudalism and it’s link to climate change, and until I am au fait with the entire oeuvre of their favoured obscure theorist I have no right to an opinion about my own lived experience. But I’ll miss that bit that because I’ve got to wash the school uniform

HOUSE!!

 

[seventh bullet]

Patronising. In several ways; and actually, seventh bullet , neatly illustrating my point for me, as well as demonstrating how women get curtailed by men in debate

You’re trying to school me in something I already know (mansplaining)

You’re telling me that you’re not the culprit (not all men).

You’re telling me I’ve misunderstood or misinterpreted things (hysterical exaggerating).

You’re telling me my reaction/interpretation is not really appropriate (overreacting).

And so, QED, the problem must be with me (not the status quo (patriarchy) ).



We have to tolerate (or challenge) this attitude in every single sphere, not only in situations that are very obviously a feminist/sexist situation.

Men * can’t see when they’re part of sexism bingo, because they are the actual bingo grid.




ETA
*Not all men etc. obvs

Nope. I was talking about my experience of posting here over many years, and being many times on the receiving end of such arguments, feeling intimidated, being punched and pounded into the ground and humiliated, spending days, weeks licking my wounds, and following from killer b's post about pulling theory rank. And don't presume to know anything about me, although being patronised and condescended to, being told what you think, indeed being told what you're capable of thinking is something you have to put up with when you're from a poor, uneducated working class background.

 

[seventh bullet]

I don't know what you mean by strictly Marxist. It's the political theory I have the most familiarity with and Marxism came up in the criticism of p&p. And I do think the lack of political discussion is linked to the lack of political activity.

I thought you were talking directly to me earlier. I agree with what you say.

 

[Athos]

What would make P&P better, SheilaNaGig?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Nope. I was talking about my experience of posting here over many years, and being many times on the receiving end of such arguments, feeling intimidated, being punched and pounded into the ground and humiliated, spending days, weeks licking my wounds, and following from killer b's post about pulling theory rank. And don't presume to know anything about me, although being patronised and condescended to, being told what you think, indeed being told what you're capable of thinking is something you have to put up with when you're from a poor, uneducated working class background.

You know what, I nearly wrote what would happen next in my earlier post.

I wrote it and then deleted it, because I thought “you never know, Sheila, it might not happen this time..” so I wrote that bit about bingo instead.

I was going to say “the next thing that happens is that you’ll get miffed and act injured and maybe even play the victim card”.


Bingo...