Feminism - where are the threads?

[Poot]

It isn’t though, is it? My point here is that women can oppress women as equally as men can oppress women. With class the distinctions are clear.

No. Women can and do frequently oppress women. Especially where there are class differences. But they are rarely in a position to do so, more usually that's men, who do so casually and get away with it much more, and have done (let's not forget) since forever. That's why women are noticed more when they do it.

 

[campanula]

O no worries, Magnus. I am sure we are more or less on the same page...mostly

 

[Magnus McGinty]

No. Women can and do frequently oppress women. Especially where there are class differences. But they are rarely in a position to do so, more usually that's men, who do so casually and get away with it much more, and have done (let's not forget) since forever. That's why women are noticed more when they do it.

Fair point. I’ve trodden on the wrong hill here, I’m mostly in agreement!

 

[Manter]

Is Let Toys Be Toys working? To me, it seems that the whole area is light years behind where it was 20 years ago.

Maybe, but also light years ahead of where it was 5 years ago

 

[SheilaNaGig]

It isn’t though, is it? My point here is that women can oppress women as equally as men can oppress women. With class the distinctions are clear.

Equally? Women can oppress women equally to men?


I think you need to go back and think that through Magnus McGinty

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Equally? Women can oppress women equally to men?


I think you need to go back and think that through Magnus McGinty

Ok, if I reword it to ‘as capably’ does that make more sense?

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Ok, if I reword it to ‘as capably’ does that make more sense?

Well thank goodness women can do things as capably as men now!

 

[SheilaNaGig]

Well thank goodness women can do things as capably as men now!

Not all men written as yeah but some women.


We're perfectly aware that women can be part of the problem. We run up against this almost every time we have a discussion about this stuff. And it mostly kills the conversation stone dead. ETA I mean that when I'm talking with women about this stuff and a woman says "Well not in my experience yeah but men can't help it" or whatever, it can silence the discussion. Because now we're dealing with something very deep, very inherent, very insidious.

 

[campanula]

No. Women can and do frequently oppress women. Especially where there are class differences. But they are rarely in a position to do so, more usually that's men, who do so casually and get away with it much more, and have done (let's not forget) since forever. That's why women are noticed more when they do it.

Indeed, Poot. The number of women, killed at the hands of men.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Well thank goodness women can do things as capably as men now!

Like oppressing people? Phew, for a moment I thought I was in danger of making the wrong point.

 

[trashpony]

Gender roles have become much much more restrictive than they were when I was a child. Some of it is branding and social media - clothes for playing for boys and girls were pretty much the same when I was little but now we have ‘gender’ reveal parties, pink and blue prams, hair bows for baby girls and endless messaging on kids’ T-shirts tell them what is appropriate behaviour for girls and boys.

Let Toys Be Toys has had a positive impact in that pointing out this isn’t necessarily a good thing is much more acceptable nowadays. It’s no longer dismissed as rabid feminist stuff in mainstream mothering SM groups

 

[Manter]

Just pick one! It's not a trap. I'm just interested in a practical answer that (a) doesn't require the overthrow of the entire capitalist system* and (b) is focussed on women rather than all workers.

(*NB I am not claiming that is not a solution)

One of the interesting things I think is that to help you yourself have to get into and engage with some really difficult situations.

Saying ‘yeah I’m sorry, xyz is shit’ is one thing.
Doing something to change it is different. That might mean tough conversations with mates. Turning down opportunities at work. Asking difficult conversations about things and opportunities offered to you.... women can’t force this, we need the other 50% of the population to help.

 

[Manter]

Gender roles have become much much more restrictive than they were when I was a child. Some of it is branding and social media - clothes for playing for boys and girls were pretty much the same when I was little but now we have ‘gender’ reveal parties, pink and blue prams, hair bows for baby girls and endless messaging on kids’ T-shirts tell them what is appropriate behaviour for girls and boys.

Let Toys Be Toys has had a positive impact in that pointing out this isn’t necessarily a good thing is much more acceptable nowadays. It’s no longer dismissed as rabid feminist stuff in mainstream mothering SM groups

Have you read female chauvinist pigs? It’s a bit dated now but what she identified about entrenchment of some quite extreme gender roles seems to have been bourne out

 

[campanula]

Gender roles have become much much more restrictive than they were when I was a child.

Yes, I feel desolate at the blatant division and objectification of children as markets.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Well thank goodness women can do things as capably as men now!

If only power was so equally distributed. I could get sacked by my female senior manager or evicted by my female landlord. This is why identity can be problematic when making claims about power.

 

[campanula]

I am shamefully vague about current feminist discourse because I feel a bit far removed from most social stuff. I do remember being involved in a whole program of positive ideas (from 70s on) - from refuges to self-defence courses, (in which I was rubbish), education, reclaim the night, a really positive attempt to break down traditional family and gender roles (I was a window cleaner, carpentry teacher, bodywork customiser, landscaper), challenging objectification and commodification - it was a hopeful time for me. I admit to being bored and confused about feminist po-mo theory when I finally had a chance to do a mature student thing in the 90s and then drifted back into general social care/youthwork before full anti-socialness kicked in.
A bit reluctant to post though, as I am not sure that there isn't a large element of 'things were better in my day' (but not neccessarily for me)

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I can image there’s both female managers and female landlords here on Urban75. Hopefully not waxing lyrical about oppression.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

I can image there’s both female managers and female landlords here on Urban75. Hopefully not waxing lyrical about oppression.

Because a female manager or landlord wouldn’t have experience of being oppressed?

Are you saying that having financial power puts a women beyond oppression?

 

[Thora]

I can image there’s both female managers and female landlords here on Urban75. Hopefully not waxing lyrical about oppression.

I'm actually an employer. Does this mean I get to opt out of sex based oppression?

 

[weepiper]

Because money is the only oppression you can imagine

 

[mojo pixy]

A parent stopping or ruining contact with another parent is a kind of sex-based oppression. Children growing up alienated, all that. Patriarchy facilitates it so I'm sure it has reasons. Keeping women dependent on men, the state, and part-time low-status work, keeping men angry because angry men work harder and longer hours. Fuck knows really but I don't believe part-time-dad-ism is good for men, women or children. I reckon it's good for capitalism though, 100% sure of that. Broken families buying two of everything for starters.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

My point was that women can oppress other women economically. That doesn’t disregard any other feminist point.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Blimey.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Because money is the only oppression you can imagine

Did I say that?

 

[Thora]

My point was that women can oppress other women economically. That doesn’t disregard any other feminist point.

Your point was female managers and landlords can't talk about oppression. So they do face oppression, they just shouldn't talk about it?

I'm a pretty low earner by the way, and a renter. And I employ someone. But I shouldn't be talking about feminism

 

[Poot]

Your point was female managers and landlords can't talk about oppression. So they do face oppression, they just shouldn't talk about it?

I'm a pretty low earner by the way, and a renter. And I employ someone. But I shouldn't be talking about feminism

Bad luck, Thora. You just missed the cut-off for being able to talk about feminism. So near and yet so far.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Your point was female managers and landlords can't talk about oppression. So they do face oppression, they just shouldn't talk about it?

I'm a pretty low earner by the way, and a renter. And I employ someone. But I shouldn't be talking about feminism

Not sure I mentioned you personally, but to be clear, are you saying that I oppress my female higher manager and female landlord by virtue of having a dick?

 

[killer b]

Not sure I mentioned you personally, but to be clear, are you saying that I oppress my female higher manager and female landlord by virtue of having a dick?

quit this tedious bullshit dude.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

quit this tedious bullshit dude.

Fair enough mate. Glad to. It evolved from an earlier point I was making, but it’s lost direction now.

 

[Thora]

Not sure I mentioned you personally, but to be clear, are you saying that I oppress my female higher manager and female landlord by virtue of having a dick?

Exactly. Dick-havers, as a class, oppress vagina-havers, as a class.

Don't worry, I wasn't talking about you personally either. I'm sure you're great.