FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Shut up then. Don't post here again. Just don't. Don't even reply to this. It's easy.
Feminism - where are the threads?
- Thread starter JudithB
- Start date
I won’t, despite the daft aggression you display. 
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
OK. Thread ban then as per other people.
SheilaNaGig
Break requested
When , in working class history, have working class women shat upon working class men?
I realise that I may be ignorant of the theory because I've not done the right course or read the right books or done the correct degree.
Are you saying that working class men have had the same degree of shat-up-upon-ness as working class women, or are you saying that shat-upon working class men are in some way worse off than shat upon working class woman? Or is it possible that the working class man that has been shat upon then goes home and shits upon his wife?
This is nonsense! It’s like I’m playing Hungry Hippo here. Argh!
ffs
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Putting words into his mouth?
I think he's responding to McGinty.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
Well that seemed killed the thread for a bit... but no SheilaNaGig that wasn't my point, as I hope is clearer by now.
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weltweit
Well-Known Member
In order to address the gender pay gap it has to be possible to find out who earns what.
Which is why I am a bit surprised no one commented on my suggestion that government makes everyone's tax returns public, or at least available on application.
It would help women in work on wage negotiations if they knew what men were being paid for the same job, to take one example. But it would also help everyone in the labour market to know how well or poorly paid people in various sectors were.
Admittedly it would do nothing to address the issue of unpaid work, but for that it could be that a citizens wage might work to reduce inequality, and finally pay essential work like parenting which the nation absolutely requires but for which no one actually pays at the moment.
Which is why I am a bit surprised no one commented on my suggestion that government makes everyone's tax returns public, or at least available on application.
It would help women in work on wage negotiations if they knew what men were being paid for the same job, to take one example. But it would also help everyone in the labour market to know how well or poorly paid people in various sectors were.
Admittedly it would do nothing to address the issue of unpaid work, but for that it could be that a citizens wage might work to reduce inequality, and finally pay essential work like parenting which the nation absolutely requires but for which no one actually pays at the moment.
Treacle Toes
Time
Have you never noticed? No one can talk on any issue apart from class in a way that he likes and identifies with and not get called an identitarian by MM. It's been like that for a long while. It mostly boils down to him not being in charge of the conversation in reality though because talk about being a White working class man is fine and actually what he wants to do.
Humberto
Relax
This identity politics vs classical student of Marx (the latter is very valuable no one has disagreed) is basically the same in terms of struggle for societal justice. So perhaps a snobbishness amongst our more learned friends is to be expected, but is better avoided.
Cunted off in 3 ... 2... 1...
Cunted off in 3 ... 2... 1...
JudithB
Well-Known Member
I am delighted and somewhat tearful, I must confess, on returning to the thread to find so many new posters and much conversation being had.
Welcome to one and all and thank you!
There are so many posts I want to quote - you brilliant women (*wells up again*) that I have lost track, so I will make a couple of points, suggestions and some assumptions.
If anyone has not read CCP’s book the Invisible Woman I would highly recommend you do. I would also recommend you buy it for your husbands, partners and most importantly bosses and male co-workers. Learn the stats important to your roles and tell HR they need to make the necessary changes. Start a women’s group at work to discuss the safety issues.
In the same way Let Toys Be Toys is working from the grass roots, CCP’s book should bring into the light the inequalities on how the game is rigged from the start.
GPG IS a structural problem. Until we break the patriarchal capitalist structure that perceives the average male as the default, changing the GPG will be more difficult. With the imminent threat of climate change and its causes being tied to patriarchal capitalism do we find ourselves in a (unique?) position to try and dismantle the structure?
Having only known patriarchal structures, women as a consequence, internalise their own patriarchal modes of oppression as they are unable to find expression outside of andocentric capitalism. This is not a criticism. We only know what we know. But to quote Thora, mostly those with dicks oppress those without dicks.
Who here has read Naomi Alderman’s “The Power?” It imagines a world where women have the greater strength, but because it is set within the limitations of 2000 years of patriarchal rule, the outcomes are interesting and perhaps unsurprising.
Manter, thank you for your comments which I take on board. Motherhood is one of the main sticks society uses to beat women and we must be careful not to fall into the trap of demonising the mother for her choices, however we phrase our intent. Thanks
IMO the 3rd wave has a lot to answer for in terms of the regressiveness of its particular strand of feminism. To regalvanise yourselves, watch “She’s Beautiful When She’s Angry” on Netflix
For the men on this thread who might find the conversations a little uncomfortable, be assured if you let the conversations break through that barrier it will make it easier for you to contribute. I am white and if a POC mentions racism to me, especially institutional racism, it makes me feel uncomfortable for I am part of the oppression whether I like it or not. But it does neither party any good for me to shout not all white people, or white lives matter. It is no more than that for men when feminism is discussed. Let it go bro.
Edited for shocking grammar!
Welcome to one and all and thank you!
There are so many posts I want to quote - you brilliant women (*wells up again*) that I have lost track, so I will make a couple of points, suggestions and some assumptions.
If anyone has not read CCP’s book the Invisible Woman I would highly recommend you do. I would also recommend you buy it for your husbands, partners and most importantly bosses and male co-workers. Learn the stats important to your roles and tell HR they need to make the necessary changes. Start a women’s group at work to discuss the safety issues.
In the same way Let Toys Be Toys is working from the grass roots, CCP’s book should bring into the light the inequalities on how the game is rigged from the start.
GPG IS a structural problem. Until we break the patriarchal capitalist structure that perceives the average male as the default, changing the GPG will be more difficult. With the imminent threat of climate change and its causes being tied to patriarchal capitalism do we find ourselves in a (unique?) position to try and dismantle the structure?
Having only known patriarchal structures, women as a consequence, internalise their own patriarchal modes of oppression as they are unable to find expression outside of andocentric capitalism. This is not a criticism. We only know what we know. But to quote Thora, mostly those with dicks oppress those without dicks.
Who here has read Naomi Alderman’s “The Power?” It imagines a world where women have the greater strength, but because it is set within the limitations of 2000 years of patriarchal rule, the outcomes are interesting and perhaps unsurprising.
Manter, thank you for your comments which I take on board. Motherhood is one of the main sticks society uses to beat women and we must be careful not to fall into the trap of demonising the mother for her choices, however we phrase our intent. Thanks
IMO the 3rd wave has a lot to answer for in terms of the regressiveness of its particular strand of feminism. To regalvanise yourselves, watch “She’s Beautiful When She’s Angry” on Netflix
For the men on this thread who might find the conversations a little uncomfortable, be assured if you let the conversations break through that barrier it will make it easier for you to contribute. I am white and if a POC mentions racism to me, especially institutional racism, it makes me feel uncomfortable for I am part of the oppression whether I like it or not. But it does neither party any good for me to shout not all white people, or white lives matter. It is no more than that for men when feminism is discussed. Let it go bro.
Edited for shocking grammar!
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The most vocal man on here is neither very learned or very Marxist, there's no point talking to him about feminism because he can't even explain what he means by class politics and every time produces the same blockage in any discussion.
As for some of the other men, I think it's unfair to put everybody in the same camp, they come from different positions, only some are Marxist, some are anarchists, some are anarchists influenced strongly by Marx, others not. Some read theory and history, including feminist theory and history. This is, after all, the theory and philosophy forum, but yes some of them are going to piss people off if it feels like they're saying you're not doing it right, again.
Miyake69JudithB the idea that women's capacity to oppress others is internalised patriarchy, that's surely only one feminist idea about this. Are there others?
As for some of the other men, I think it's unfair to put everybody in the same camp, they come from different positions, only some are Marxist, some are anarchists, some are anarchists influenced strongly by Marx, others not. Some read theory and history, including feminist theory and history. This is, after all, the theory and philosophy forum, but yes some of them are going to piss people off if it feels like they're saying you're not doing it right, again.
Miyake69JudithB the idea that women's capacity to oppress others is internalised patriarchy, that's surely only one feminist idea about this. Are there others?
JudithB
Well-Known Member
It's incredible. Women are 19% more likely to die in car accidents because of how seatbelts are fitted and tested. No thought has been put into pregnant women and seatbelts.
Stab and bullet proof vests are less likely to protect women's vital organs because no thought has been put into women having breasts.
These are just a couple of examples that spring to mind
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Hi JudithB
thinking back to your original question Feminism where are the threads? - I think this thread shows there is an appetite for starting some. Several different feminist issues and themes have come up here (and I never did get around to reading the first 12 pages) I think we need threads on the following and will start some as soon as I have time:
I'm sure theres lots of other themes we need to explore too. Let's start some more specialised threads.
thinking back to your original question Feminism where are the threads? - I think this thread shows there is an appetite for starting some. Several different feminist issues and themes have come up here (and I never did get around to reading the first 12 pages) I think we need threads on the following and will start some as soon as I have time:
gender pay gap / equal pay
motherhood and parenting
male as default
rape
sexual harassment
motherhood and parenting
male as default
rape
sexual harassment
I'm sure theres lots of other themes we need to explore too. Let's start some more specialised threads.
JudithB
Well-Known Member
Great idea. The gender pay gap is a good one to start with as it will branch into the first three topics you refer to above and may spawn threads from it.
Having seen the reactions within this thread, I suggest treading lightly at the moment and holding fire on rape and sexual harassment threads.
Having seen the reactions within this thread, I suggest treading lightly at the moment and holding fire on rape and sexual harassment threads.
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
Done!
trashpony
Hag
Thanks for the nudge to get CCP's book Judith - just ordered it. I read this article by her and was blown away: The deadly truth about a world built for men – from stab vests to car crashes
I literally had never considered the far-reaching implicaitons of living in a world where women are basically defined as non-men until I read this article. I knew CCP was writing a book but didn't know what it was about. She's a genius.
I literally had never considered the far-reaching implicaitons of living in a world where women are basically defined as non-men until I read this article. I knew CCP was writing a book but didn't know what it was about. She's a genius.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What would a feminism from the bottom up look like - would it look like this thread? Would it look like this? Why would it need to be bottom up at all?
In short
Fork in the road
Faced with these two visions of feminism, we find ourselves at a fork in the road. One path leads to a scorched planet where human life is immiserated, if it remains possible at all. The other points to the sort of world that has always figured in humanity’s dreams: one whose wealth and natural resources are shared by all, where equality and freedom are premises, not aspirations. What makes the choice so pressing is the disappearance of any middle way, due to the predatory form of financialized neoliberal capitalism that has held sway for the last forty years—raising the stakes for every social struggle and turning efforts to win modest reforms into pitched battles for survival. In these conditions feminists, like everyone else, must take a stand. Will we continue to pursue ‘equal-opportunity domination’ while the planet burns? Or will we reimagine gender justice in an anti-capitalist form, which leads beyond the present carnage to a new society?
Our Manifesto is a brief for the second path. What makes an anti-capitalist feminism thinkable today is the political dimension of the present crisis: the erosion of elite credibility throughout the world, affecting not only the centrist neoliberal parties but also their Sandberg-style corporate-feminist allies. This was the feminism that foundered in the us presidential election of 2016, when the ‘historic’ candidacy of Hillary Clinton failed to elicit the enthusiasm of women voters. For good reason: Clinton personified the disconnect between elite women’s ascension to high office and improvements in the lives of the vast majority.
Clinton’s defeat is our wake-up call. Exposing the bankruptcy of liberal feminism, it represents a historic opening for a challenge from the left. In the current vacuum of liberal hegemony, we have the chance to build another feminism and to re-define what counts as a feminist issue, developing a different class orientation and a radical-transformative ethos. We write not to sketch an imagined utopia, but to clarify the road that must be travelled to reach a just society. We aim to explain why feminists should choose the road of the feminist strikes, unite with other anti-capitalist and anti-systemic movements and become a ‘feminism for the 99 per cent’. What gives us hope for this project now are the stirrings of a new global wave, with the international feminist strikes of 2017–18 and the increasingly coordinated movements that are developing around them. As a first step, we set out eleven theses on the present conjuncture and the bases for a radical, new, anti-capitalist feminist movement.
In full
In short
Fork in the road
Faced with these two visions of feminism, we find ourselves at a fork in the road. One path leads to a scorched planet where human life is immiserated, if it remains possible at all. The other points to the sort of world that has always figured in humanity’s dreams: one whose wealth and natural resources are shared by all, where equality and freedom are premises, not aspirations. What makes the choice so pressing is the disappearance of any middle way, due to the predatory form of financialized neoliberal capitalism that has held sway for the last forty years—raising the stakes for every social struggle and turning efforts to win modest reforms into pitched battles for survival. In these conditions feminists, like everyone else, must take a stand. Will we continue to pursue ‘equal-opportunity domination’ while the planet burns? Or will we reimagine gender justice in an anti-capitalist form, which leads beyond the present carnage to a new society?
Our Manifesto is a brief for the second path. What makes an anti-capitalist feminism thinkable today is the political dimension of the present crisis: the erosion of elite credibility throughout the world, affecting not only the centrist neoliberal parties but also their Sandberg-style corporate-feminist allies. This was the feminism that foundered in the us presidential election of 2016, when the ‘historic’ candidacy of Hillary Clinton failed to elicit the enthusiasm of women voters. For good reason: Clinton personified the disconnect between elite women’s ascension to high office and improvements in the lives of the vast majority.
Clinton’s defeat is our wake-up call. Exposing the bankruptcy of liberal feminism, it represents a historic opening for a challenge from the left. In the current vacuum of liberal hegemony, we have the chance to build another feminism and to re-define what counts as a feminist issue, developing a different class orientation and a radical-transformative ethos. We write not to sketch an imagined utopia, but to clarify the road that must be travelled to reach a just society. We aim to explain why feminists should choose the road of the feminist strikes, unite with other anti-capitalist and anti-systemic movements and become a ‘feminism for the 99 per cent’. What gives us hope for this project now are the stirrings of a new global wave, with the international feminist strikes of 2017–18 and the increasingly coordinated movements that are developing around them. As a first step, we set out eleven theses on the present conjuncture and the bases for a radical, new, anti-capitalist feminist movement.
In full
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
I don't think the Inclusion & Diversity committee at my work is going to like either of those.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I like the quote right at the start - will give that a read once I'm done with BA's link.
Sorry I’m just catching up cos ironically I’ve been too busy caring for other people (the ex mother in laws had a stroke and the teenage boys are being teenage boys and the ex is drinking like a cunt again). But this threads fucking ace. Gonna read a few links posted, then get stuck in again.
I've heard people say this a few times recently and wondered what others thought because I remember things being very different in the 80s. Girls were enouraged to play wth Cindy and My Little Pony, boys with Action Men and Star Wars figures and any deviation from this would have resulted in bullying. At my schools girls had to wear tiny impractical skirts and boys wore shorts, although at my upper school this was being challenged (arguments about girls wearing trousers and boys wearing earrings come to mind). Girls played netball and boys football, and no-one trascended this, or would have been allowed to. Girls did two sessions of Home Economics a week and one of woodwork and for boys it was the other way round. Up North in the 80s even men having long hair was still an issue, whilst i dont think I ever saw a butch lesbian until I moved to London. I sometimes wonder if people are looking back with rose tinted spectacles at their own youth, because whilst there is a long way I go think there has been considerable progress in breaking down gender stereotypes within my lifetime.
ManchesterBeth
Well-Known Member
Please don't bring race or disability into this conversation because I'm yelled at when I raise points about, these topics both by the 'hard man class identity politics' and identity feminist crowds. Thank you.
Balbi
Hey, Dean Yager!
Capitalism has become more geared to deliberate gender events - so your gender reveal parties and the cheap trashy kids clothing with 'lil' heartbreaker' for boys and 'my dad says no dating' for girls.
This weird aesthetic of 'cute' when slapped on seriously questionable projections onto young kids. We've got little Treebi and yo man the shit that people say if he's in a pink t-shirt - not like offensive but just 'oh he likes pink' and stuff around that, like they're very gently patrolling the boundaries.
There's more shit about gendered products (and more shit gendered products) and also the cultural backlash against diverse cultures which takes its most avataristic forms in Jordy Petersen and the weird hearth and home-making women of the conservative right.
This weird aesthetic of 'cute' when slapped on seriously questionable projections onto young kids. We've got little Treebi and yo man the shit that people say if he's in a pink t-shirt - not like offensive but just 'oh he likes pink' and stuff around that, like they're very gently patrolling the boundaries.
There's more shit about gendered products (and more shit gendered products) and also the cultural backlash against diverse cultures which takes its most avataristic forms in Jordy Petersen and the weird hearth and home-making women of the conservative right.
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weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
I didn't like Sindy or Barbie and thought My Little Pony was shit. I wasn't bullied for preferring climbing trees and wearing trousers although I was generally thought of as a bit odd. Tbh I got picked on for having weirdo hippie parents, wearing glasses and being a bus kid not a village kid much more than I ever got for being gender non conforming. Edit, this is mid 80s Scotland. YMMV.
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