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Feminism - where are the threads?

I've heard people say this a few times recently and wondered what others thought because I remember things being very different in the 80s. Girls were enouraged to play wth Cindy and My Little Pony, boys with Action Men and Star Wars figures and any deviation from this would have resulted in bullying. At my schools girls had to wear tiny impractical skirts and boys wore shorts, although at my upper school this was being challenged (arguments about girls wearing trousers and boys wearing earrings come to mind). Girls played netball and boys football, and no-one trascended this, or would have been allowed to. Girls did two sessions of Home Economics a week and one of woodwork and for boys it was the other way round. Up North in the 80s even men having long hair was still an issue, whilst i dont think I ever saw a butch lesbian until I moved to London. I sometimes wonder if people are looking back with rose tinted spectacles at their own youth, because whilst there is a long way I go think there has been considerable progress in breaking down gender stereotypes within my lifetime.
I didn’t grow up in the 80s. I grew up in the 60s and 70s. We didn’t have uniform at my school. Everyone wore jeans and T-shirts. Girls and boys had equal amounts of HE and DT classes.

How exactly have gender stereotypes broken down since the childhood you’re describing? They’re much worse now, especially for girls.
 
Capitalism has become more geared to deliberate gender events - so your gender reveal parties and the cheap trashy kids clothing with 'lil' heartbreaker' for boys and 'my dad says no dating' for girls.

I think capitalism just realised that it thrives on creating distinctions and niches, so it will vacillate between being a bit "woke" (boke) and trying to encourage gender distinctions, with a patchwork of one gaining the upper hand in certain areas, and then the pendulum swinging back again, as emergent trends dictate.
 
Wow. Gender reveal party. I've just googled that as well. Firstly, it's a sex reveal party, ffs. A unborn foetus doesn't have a gender. We're so confused about the sex/gender distinction. Who cares? It's a fucking baby! But yes, wow, everyone needs to know what baby clothes to buy, eh? As FabricLiveBaby! said on another thread, gender is an opportunity for capitalism to sell us the same thing twice. It ain't going to miss out.
 
Wow. Gender reveal party. I've just googled that as well. Firstly, it's a sex reveal party, ffs. A unborn foetus doesn't have a gender. We're so confused about the sex/gender distinction. Who cares? It's a fucking baby! But yes, wow, everyone needs to know what baby clothes to buy, eh? As FabricLiveBaby! said on another thread, gender is an opportunity for capitalism to sell us the same thing twice. It ain't going to miss out.

Just two choices is a bit limiting, though. The market is missing a trick.
 
Yeah and calling it a 'sex reveal party' sounds like a TOTALLY different kind of party :eek::facepalm:
It's just weird, tbh. The idea that anyone would or should give a shit either way. If I were ever invited to such a monstrosity, I would insist on calling it a sex reveal party at every opportunity. And probably get myself uninvited...
 
Well at least we've explained it.
The lack of football threads remains a mystery, however.

Tough day?
 
who, me? i only had one-and-a-half birthdays, one set of benefit forms, one orthodontist, one sick kid (at home), one autistic kid (at school), one cat, one garden, two teas to sort out/tend to. essentially a day off, ta :thumbs:

Sounds like enough without having to explain to me how half a birthday works. :D
 
emotional labour is an actual thing. being the glue that holds a family together is an actual thing. i abdicated a lot of it a while ago because i really wasn't well enough to keep myself functioning let alone any extended family systems. but part of picking back up the pieces is picking back up the emotional labour. that i have a life partner who's committed, willing and (mostly) able to hold the fort in the interim is pretty unusual when it comes to heterosexual relationships, ime.

in my optimistic moments i hope that the amount of time he takes to deal with kid-admin and (especially) kid1's counselling/hospital appointments goes some small way to restoring the gender/parental responsibility balance in the workplace...
 
emotional labour is an actual thing. being the glue that holds a family together is an actual thing..

Fuck yeah. Hugely more draining if you’re introverted to any degree or anywhere along the autistic spectrum, too, so you need downtime and support and to not let anyone make you feel any guilt about that.

Fasten your own oxygen mask first etc.
 
i think what we're mostly finding out about the lack of feminism threads is that many women are so busy keeping everything afloat they have no time or headspace for philosophical discussion or explaining to men in detail how they could/should help...
I am feeling guilty for just that reason. Life has taken hold and I have not had the time to come back and see what everyone is saying.

I am very glad to see that women appear to be outnumbering the men on the threads. There is nothing better than women actually getting to say what feminism is rather than men dictating to them what they must think, feel, centre in their own movement - well done women!
 
I've heard people say this a few times recently and wondered what others thought because I remember things being very different in the 80s. Girls were enouraged to play wth Cindy and My Little Pony, boys with Action Men and Star Wars figures and any deviation from this would have resulted in bullying. At my schools girls had to wear tiny impractical skirts and boys wore shorts, although at my upper school this was being challenged (arguments about girls wearing trousers and boys wearing earrings come to mind). Girls played netball and boys football, and no-one trascended this, or would have been allowed to. Girls did two sessions of Home Economics a week and one of woodwork and for boys it was the other way round. Up North in the 80s even men having long hair was still an issue, whilst i dont think I ever saw a butch lesbian until I moved to London. I sometimes wonder if people are looking back with rose tinted spectacles at their own youth, because whilst there is a long way I go think there has been considerable progress in breaking down gender stereotypes within my lifetime.

I think it's a mixed picture. I didn't play with those kinds of dolls. I had a big robust doll called Suzy who had brown curly hair, I didn't have any Cindy dolls or anything like that. I didn't like a lot of 'girls' stuff so I didn't do it, but I did love my cuddly animals and they got pushed round in a big pram. I dressed in shorts and trousers at my non-uniform primary and refused to wear a skirt for at least a year, including insisting on wearing jeans in the country dancing show we did when we were 8. Lots of 70s kids clothing was quite gender neutral, patterned hooded cardies, that kind of stuff, there wasn't any pink. I had Star Wars figures, as did my sister. I wasn't ever bullied but there were some parents who didn't approve of us. I climbed trees, played with boys and girls. That was the 70s. My daughter went on a Woodcraft folk outdoorsy trip recently and the girls in her class went eugh jumping in mud that's weird, why did you want to do that? I don't recall any shit like that when I was a kid. It's so self-limiting, it's all selfies and shit, what they look like. But my daughters friend in a different school dresses in boys clothes, so does her friend, they play football, and that is different, that there are more girls clubs and team. However, these girls see themselves as separate from girls, though not identified fully as boys, they don't get bullied in primary, but they're not integrated, they're split off.

I do think there's more freedom for teenagers these days but that probably depends on the environment. I went to high school in Liverpool in the 80s and there was a huge pressure to conform to some really narrow scouse identity and it was tough for those of us that didn't. I don't think that's changed much.
 
I grew up in the eighties and although Cindy and Barbie were popular there was also a huge push against them. They were controversial, especially Barbie because of her body shape. Lots of girls weren't even allowed them, and were sometimes bought similar alternatives instead because there's nothing actually wrong with playing with dolls.

I never totally bought into the hate, despite being a total tomboy, because one of my best friends had Barbies and we played all sorts of games with them, sending them off on adventures in her awesome Barbie car. Her body shape was crap but even then there was a Barbie doctor and a Barbie vet.

Cindy and Barbie aren't big now but there are lots of other similar toys. And Barbie actually has some really cool dolls - I wouldn't at all be against G playing with them when she gets older (J was never interested in dolls).

And now there are things like pink lego, pink toy pushchairs, everything branded pink to try to make parents buy more than one of everything. And Playmobile is huge right now, it seems to me, and that's quite heavily gendered. I looked up playmobile+chickens (because I kept chickens) and there is a chicken keeper! Labelled "farmer's wife." :D

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Playmobil-...ocphy=9044965&hvtargid=pla-434823194063&psc=1
 
I didn’t grow up in the 80s. I grew up in the 60s and 70s. We didn’t have uniform at my school. Everyone wore jeans and T-shirts. Girls and boys had equal amounts of HE and DT classes.

How exactly have gender stereotypes broken down since the childhood you’re describing? They’re much worse now, especially for girls.

The first row I ever remember my mum and step dad having was when my mum said she wanted to get a job. Even this
was controversial because there was huge social pressure for married women to stay at home with the kids although the financial constraints of Thatcherism would soon change this as more women had to work as wages stagnated and male unemployment grew. I remember a woman bus driver being employed locally and older men in my family saying they wouldn't travel on a bus if a woman was driving. Bender and poof were used synonymosly as insults in my schools, gender conformity (and heterosexuality) was ruthlessly policed, amongst both boys and girls, being a poof or lemon (which meant lesbian at my school) was seen as digusting and the lowest of the low, and out of well over one thousand kids in my school not one came out as gay, lebsian, bisexual or trans. Gender was even socially enforced by different dress codes, lesson plans and sports and play available. At my primary school boys and girls were segregated at playtimes, boy had to play football and the girls had some sloping concrete bank at the side of the pitch. People like Boy George and Annie Lennox were despised by many people, and gender stereotypes were much more bound up with sexuality back then. A lot of the older generations conflated being gender non conforming with being gay or lesbian and society was increadibly homophobic in the 80s compared to now.

Yes there were some 'tomboys', my friend was one, and the various subcultures did allow for some men to be more feminine, but it was socially frowned on to the extent you might not get a job and it probably wasn't a good idea to go walking through the city centre on a Saturday night unless there was a big gang of you. And someone who was read as male, but went out wearing a frock and heels would likely have been beaten up or even potentially arrested back then.

I'm not at all saying that new things haven't emerged which reinforce gender stereotypes, or that the problem is solved, its far far from that. But I don't think its anything like it was, young people are much freer to make choices about their lives outside of the social constraints of gender than they were.
 
emotional labour is an actual thing. being the glue that holds a family together is an actual thing. i abdicated a lot of it a while ago because i really wasn't well enough to keep myself functioning let alone any extended family systems. but part of picking back up the pieces is picking back up the emotional labour. that i have a life partner who's committed, willing and (mostly) able to hold the fort in the interim is pretty unusual when it comes to heterosexual relationships, ime.

in my optimistic moments i hope that the amount of time he takes to deal with kid-admin and (especially) kid1's counselling/hospital appointments goes some small way to restoring the gender/parental responsibility balance in the workplace...
Emotional labour. I’ve never heard that term before. But yeh absolutely. The having to remember everything for everyone bit is absolutely exhausting. And if you forget one thing you get blamed. Example: I go to the supermarket every week, and buy like, what, over fifty different items. But the only time anyone ever even notices that I’ve gone to the shops is if I forget the one thing they wanted. See also: all the appointments, birthdays, school shit (fuck off world book day I’m looking at you), family occasions (his fam as well as yours), pets, the list goes on. Along with the actual work (ie scrub the toilet, cooking, lifts, homework, counselling, screaming like a harridan) it’s at least equivalent to a part time job (and mine are teenagers!).

There’s that, plus the fact that a lot of men even now can’t do even basic household management. My father in law is of a generation of men who’ve never so much as boiled an egg. Now M-in-laws on the stroke ward I’m having to cook for him, fling a hoover round etc cos he literally cannot do this shit himself.

But here’s the thing, I don’t even mind doing that work myself. I quite like taking care of people, especially people I love. But it needs to be recognised. I need TIME to do it, and I need to be able to AFFORD to do it. If I work part time (as I did til last year) and get working family tax credits cos my incomes under 15k pa, don’t look down on that as benefits. I mean society don’t look down on that. Because it’s cheap at the fucking price, compared to meals on wheels or a care package or a nursery.

Why are we (as a society) paying minimum wage to childcare workers, yet still the cost of childcare absolutely demolishes a young family’s (let alone single mums) income, to do a job that a lot of the time could be done by a Mum or Dad who actually loves that baby/child and wants to do it but can’t afford to?

It’s insane! You pay through the fucking nose to go to work to do a job that nine times out of ten you’d probably rather not be doing, or doing so much, cos you’d rather be home with your baby. And most of the time it’s at best marginally fucking worth it! At least that’s how it’s been for me up til last summer. Same with care packages for the old folk, insanely expensive, often poor quality, whilst someone (a daughter or son) who wants to do it sits in an office feeling guilty, or dashes there between working days.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for women having a career, having a job outside the home, their own interests and identity. It’s what I wanted once my kids were in primary. But it should be a choice. A sit down ‘so how many days do you want to work, and how many days do you want or need running the home?’. Rightio, there you go, sorted. Men the same, no excuses here, they get offered the same deal. Caring responsibilities = option of flexible working + decent WTC.

It seems to me not just better for people (the carer and the cared for) but it’s also surely gotta be more cost efficient for us as a society?! Whose crunched these numbers, someone must have. The issue will be that Care Provider X doesn’t make a profit. Well fuck Care Provider X.

As a society let’s do the numbers and have a chat about this, cos it’s not working out right now. Not for the old folk sat alone with their Wiltshire Farm Foods ready meals, or the little kids in day care for longer thans reasonable, but mostly for the women who are trying to do it all because they have to.
 
Emotional labour. I’ve never heard that term before. But yeh absolutely. The having to remember everything for everyone bit is absolutely exhausting. And if you forget one thing you get blamed.

... and then everyone is like "but you only had to remember ONE THING!!"... :mad:

Can identify with this from the other side because it's triggering memories of me doing this sort of thing as a grumpy teen. :oops:
 
I grew up in the eighties and although Cindy and Barbie were popular there was also a huge push against them. They were controversial, especially Barbie because of her body shape. Lots of girls weren't even allowed them, and were sometimes bought similar alternatives instead because there's nothing actually wrong with playing with dolls.

I never totally bought into the hate, despite being a total tomboy, because one of my best friends had Barbies and we played all sorts of games with them, sending them off on adventures in her awesome Barbie car. Her body shape was crap but even then there was a Barbie doctor and a Barbie vet.

Cindy and Barbie aren't big now but there are lots of other similar toys. And Barbie actually has some really cool dolls - I wouldn't at all be against G playing with them when she gets older (J was never interested in dolls).

And now there are things like pink lego, pink toy pushchairs, everything branded pink to try to make parents buy more than one of everything. And Playmobile is huge right now, it seems to me, and that's quite heavily gendered. I looked up playmobile+chickens (because I kept chickens) and there is a chicken keeper! Labelled "farmer's wife." :D

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Playmobil-...ocphy=9044965&hvtargid=pla-434823194063&psc=1

I think toys are one this that has proved pretty resistant to change, but I'm not convinced it is worse as such, just the same: 35 Awesome Toys Every '80s Girl Wanted For Christmas
 
I found this essay by Grayson Perry really interesting and challenging
Grayson Perry: The rise and fall of Default Man
This was really good mate. Excellent. One of those bits of writing that genuinely give you a different perspective suddenly. An anthropological eye for suit man and the straight guy. This bit in particular made me laugh out loud :D

With their colourful textile phalluses hanging round their necks, they make up an overwhelming majority in government, in boardrooms and also in the media.
:D

The stuff about how thinking about Default Man as the rational and normal is absurd, the suit, and hiding power in plain sight was great too:
They like to keep their abnormal power low-key: the higher the power, the duller the suit and tie, a Mercedes rather than a Rolls, just another old man chatting casually to prime ministers at the wedding of a tabloid editor.

Gonna read that link by butchers now. Any of the others posted I’ve missed particularly worth a read?
 
This, by Silvia Federici, covers a lot of what you're taking about, Edie:
Revolution at Point Zero: Housework, Reproduction, and Feminist Struggle
SKU: 9781604863338
 
Edie and anyone, really - I really like the book "Where we stand: class matters" by bell hooks, in which there's a chapter on Feminism and Class Power (Chapter 9, p.107)



which begins

bell hooks said:
Revolutionary feminist thinking has always raised the issue of classism among women. From the onset, there has been a struggle
within feminist movement between the reformist model of liberation, which basically demands equal rights for women within the existing class struggle,
and more radical and/or revolutionary models, which call for fundamental change in the existing structure so that models of mutuality
and equality can replace old paradigms. Just as militant black liberation struggle calling for an end to classism was made to
appear unnecessary, once black folks gained greater access to jobs, revolutionary feminism was dismissed by mainstream
reformist feminism when women, primarily well-educated white women with class privilege, began to achieve equal access
to class power with their male counterparts.
 
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