EU watch

[The39thStep]

passive-aggressive praise of "wage restraint" I suspect

Rereading it , it is a quite amazing speech :

1.the EU was built on Russian gas/cheap Chinese imports and USA security
2. The victory of the right wing populists are a legitimate national protest not the work of 'outsiders'
3.You are my ( the EU's) eyes and ears to the world / need to compete for Africa and the 'middle' states / step up social media

and a lot more

 

[The39thStep]

Borrell has a wonderful way with words

Europe is a garden , the rest of the world ....is a jungle

European Diplomatic Academy: Opening remarks by High Representative Josep Borrell at the inauguration of the pilot programme | EEAS Website

www.eeas.europa.eu

 

[steeplejack]

racism, white supremaicism, colonialist attitudes on full display.

I voted to Remain but this stuff makes me think the right side won in the end, however difficult our present domestic politics may be.

Fuck that.

 

[kabbes]

I voted to Remain but this stuff makes me think the right side won in the end, however difficult our present domestic politics may be.

Fuck that.

Yeah, same for me.

 

[gosub]

UK wins Greece in poker game with the EU

A rather quizzical British Prime Minister left the Brussels summit, arm in arm with an equally confused Greek PM

www.newsbiscuit.com

 

[The39thStep]

Impressive

 

[Karl Masks]

racism, white supremaicism, colonialist attitudes on full display.

I voted to Remain but this stuff makes me think the right side won in the end, however difficult our present domestic politics may be.

Fuck that.

The "right side" just called refugees dumped into an overcrowded disease ridden shithole invaders.

 

[_Russ_]

The "right side" just called refugees dumped into an overcrowded disease ridden shithole invaders.

Though the correlation is strong, the 'side' that voted leave are most definately not wholly the same people as Tory voters, the actual post you quoted earlier seems to allude to this yet you span it in the other direction

 

[Karl Masks]

Though the correlation is strong, the 'side' that voted leave are most definately not wholly the same people as Tory voters, the actual post you quoted earlier seems to allude to this yet you span it in the other direction

This is disingenuous. I didn't at all say that every brexit voter shared those sentiments.

 

[mojo pixy]

This is disingenuous. I didn't at all say that every brexit voter shared those sentiments.

It does beg the question though, how many FBPE types actually share the overall sentiment expressed by the bloke in the tweet, that 'Europe is a garden and the rest of the world is a jungle that could invade the garden'

If that represents something of the deeper reason/purpose for the EU to exist, then on reflection (and despite our current shitty government) maybe leaving the EU is not all bad?

I think that's the point being made, anyway.

 

[_Russ_]

The "right side" just called refugees dumped into an overcrowded disease ridden shithole invaders.

Taken in context of your back and forth with Steeplejack, the implication was clear

 

[Karl Masks]

Taken in context of your back and forth with Steeplejack, the implication was clear

That "back and forth" was one response.

Do you agree that the leave campaign and the ERG are calling refugees invaders? Yes/no?

 

[stethoscope]

That "back and forth" was one response.

Do you agree that the leave campaign and the ERG are calling refugees invaders? Yes/no?

I don't get the whatabouttery when the EU is criticised on various fronts - yeah we know the UK government, Tory/right-wing brexit headbangers are cunts and their rhetoric is getting even worse. Labour have form too and don't do much different just appear more 'compassionate'. The EU doesnt give a shit really about refugees, its 'a problem to be managed' to them. And its the case all over Europe with EU members too - Orban, etc.

Oppose the fucking lot of them.

 

[_Russ_]

That "back and forth" was one response.

Two actually bit lets not quibble

Do you agree that the leave campaign and the ERG are calling refugees invaders? Yes/no?

Ive heard Cruella say that, why the fuck are you asking me ?

 

[steeplejack]

The "right side" just called refugees dumped into an overcrowded disease ridden shithole invaders.

I'm aware of that.

It's 2022 and politics is all in one giant plague pit. There's no clean hands.

 

[Rimbaud]

It does beg the question though, how many FBPE types actually share the overall sentiment expressed by the bloke in the tweet, that 'Europe is a garden and the rest of the world is a jungle that could invade the garden'

On average, that sentiment is certainly far less common among FBPE types than it is among Brexit types. Immigration was the number one reason given for voting Brexit by a considerable margin.

I think jumping on this as evidence leaving the EU was good is rather strange. I genuinely don't understand where people are coming from with this. It's hardly like the UK has become a haven of multicultural tolerance and openness since leaving the EU.

 

[The39thStep]

It does beg the question though, how many FBPE types actually share the overall sentiment expressed by the bloke in the tweet, that 'Europe is a garden and the rest of the world is a jungle that could invade the garden'

If that represents something of the deeper reason/purpose for the EU to exist, then on reflection (and despite our current shitty government) maybe leaving the EU is not all bad?

I think that's the point being made, anyway.

It certainly exists in Europe amongst those who support the EU

 

[inva]

Immigration was the number one reason given for voting Brexit by a considerable margin.

Do you have a source for that?
According to this poll done the day of the referendum, the main reason given by leave voters was "the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK".

 

[Rimbaud]

Do you have a source for that?
According to this poll done the day of the referendum, the main reason given by leave voters was "the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK".

People’s stated reasons for voting leave or remain - UK in a changing Europe

This report includes several different surveys and opinion polls asking Britons why they voted the way they did in the EU referendum....

ukandeu.ac.uk

This report here.

I'd also point out that there is also an overlap between concerns about immigration and sovereignty, e.g. "take back control of our borders" relates to both.

And also I'm curious what corner of the country people are living in if they don't perceive anti-immigration rhetoric as a key driver of Brexit. Just about everyone I've spoke to who voted Brexit outside of Urban75 have brought up immigration as a reason.

 

[mojo pixy]

On average, that sentiment is certainly far less common among FBPE types than it is among Brexit types.

I don't know, it's all just reckons really. Nobody I know says it but I'm past thinking my friends are representative of anything much. 'Certainly' seems like a big word to use, mind.

Immigration was the number one reason given for voting Brexit by a considerable margin.

Really? It's all so long ago I barely remember any more.

I think jumping on this as evidence leaving the EU was good is rather strange. I genuinely don't understand where people are coming from with this. It's hardly like the UK has become a haven of multicultural tolerance and openness since leaving the EU.

Nor was it before, IMO. This is an island (an archipelago actually) and we're quite famous internationally for our insular attitudes and for thinking we're better than everyone else. Brexit is a symptom not a cause, I'd propose. We even fight and argue among ourselves (the various nations we represent in these islands). I don't see the UK becoming a haven of multicultural tolerance and openness any time soon, if our past is anything to go by. But I'm in a pretty bad place emotionally just now, optimism is in short supply anyway.

It certainly exists in Europe amongst those who support the EU

I'm sure. I don't suppose we're immune though.

 

[Rimbaud]

Nor was it before, IMO. This is an island (an archipelago actually) and we're quite famous internationally for our insular attitudes and for thinking we're better than everyone else. Brexit is a symptom not a cause, I'd propose. We even fight and argue among ourselves (the various nations we represent in these islands). I don't see the UK becoming a haven of multicultural tolerance and openness any time soon, if our past is anything to go by. But I'm in a pretty bad place emotionally just now, optimism is in short supply anyway.

Sure, so at best the EU being anti-immigration is kind of irrelevant to Brexit. The EU is just made up of its member states so if they are anti-immigration then the EU will be as well. Leaving the EU won't bring us a government any less xenophobic than we'd have within the EU, although there is definitely a case to be made that leaving the EU made our government more xenophobic.

It just seems an odd thing to bring up as a positive of Brexit.

 

[inva]

People’s stated reasons for voting leave or remain - UK in a changing Europe

This report includes several different surveys and opinion polls asking Britons why they voted the way they did in the EU referendum....

ukandeu.ac.uk

This report here.

I'd also point out that there is also an overlap between concerns about immigration and sovereignty, e.g. "take back control of our borders" relates to both.

And also I'm curious what corner of the country people are living in if they don't perceive anti-immigration rhetoric as a key driver of Brexit. Just about everyone I've spoke to who voted Brexit outside of Urban75 have brought up immigration as a reason.

I didn't say it wasn't a key driver of brexit, I was questioning your claim it was the number one reason by a considerable margin, which even if we go by that survey done later instead of the three surveys your link cites from the time of the referendum (all of which put sovereignty first, one of them jointly with immigration) doesn't seem to be the case. Personally I think the agreement of three seperate polls done at the time is more convincing than a single one done later, either way I'd definitely agree they were both major factors.

 

[Rimbaud]

I didn't say it wasn't a key driver of brexit, I was questioning your claim it was the number one reason by a considerable margin, which even if we go by that survey done later instead of the three surveys your link cites from the time of the referendum (all of which put sovereignty first, one of them jointly with immigration) doesn't seem to be the case. Personally I think the agreement of three seperate polls done at the time is more convincing than a single one done later, either way I'd definitely agree they were both major factors.

It was ranked as one of the top 2 reasons (along with sovereignty, which is related to it) by 70% of respondents, and in the top 3 by over 95%.

This considered, it seems odd to paint the FBPE people as the anti-immigrant side on what are extremely tenuous grounds compared to the hair splitting that comes over saying Brexit vote was anti-immigration.

 

[mojo pixy]

Sure, so at best the EU being anti-immigration is kind of irrelevant to Brexit. The EU is just made up of its member states so if they are anti-immigration then the EU will be as well. Leaving the EU won't bring us a government any less xenophobic than we'd have within the EU, although there is definitely a case to be made that leaving the EU made our government more xenophobic.

It just seems an odd thing to bring up as a positive of Brexit.

Did someone do that? I certainly didn't. I think someone posted something amounting to see, the EU is a racist as Brexit or whatever, but that's not exactly positive.

 

[inva]

It was ranked as one of the top 2 reasons (along with sovereignty, which is related to it) by 70% of respondents, and in the top 3 by over 95%.

This considered, it seems odd to paint the FBPE people as the anti-immigrant side on what are extremely tenuous grounds compared to the hair splitting that comes over saying Brexit vote was anti-immigration.

Which is different to it being the top by far which is what I was questioning It's not a big deal I was just surprised because it contradicted what I remembered from the polling at the time. I did think it was funny the study you linked saying remainers were more likely to misrepresent the views of leave voters than the other way around though.

I'm sure we can all agree the EU indulges in dangerous racist fantasies of itself as a bastion of civilisation and this must be opposed like with British Empire apologetics over here.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

One reason why remainers might 'misrepresent' some leavers is that racists often will refuse to admit their racism openly, to the general public anyway. Patriots and nationalists might often fall into that camp, and they were overwhelmingly leavers.

 

[bimble]

Though the correlation is strong, the 'side' that voted leave are most definately not wholly the same people as Tory voters

The correlation is a bit of a taboo subject here isn’t it and we can’t know for sure, but this recent depressing survey did seem to show it was pretty strong the leave & tory & anti immigrant crossover, look, I mean these are the same people ticking the boxes that apply to them.

 

[steeplejack]

Sure, so at best the EU being anti-immigration is kind of irrelevant to Brexit. The EU is just made up of its member states so if they are anti-immigration then the EU will be as well. Leaving the EU won't bring us a government any less xenophobic than we'd have within the EU, although there is definitely a case to be made that leaving the EU made our government more xenophobic.

It just seems an odd thing to bring up as a positive of Brexit.

I wasn't bringing it up as a"postive" of Brexit for fucks sake. Stop being so disingenuous.

The point actually being made was that the tarring of much of the Brexit side with the anti-immigration / racist populist brush (quite correctly) was being done by those who are quite happy to parrot parallel lines themselves- in this case open white supremacism and unreconstructed colonial attitudes by the European Commissioner for External Affairs.

Yet #FBPE and pro-European types remain quite happy to clap like seals, either because they lack any meaningful critical faculty / political education, or because they have selective vision when it comes to the utterances of senior European politicians because, free movement & the single market.

None of the above means that I think the present UK is a haven of tolerance and is welcoming of multiculturalism when it clearly isn't.

 

[Rimbaud]

I wasn't bringing it up as a"postive" of Brexit for fucks sake. Stop being so disingenuous.

You said it makes you think the right side won, which is quite different to what you're saying in the post above which seems to be that there is no difference between EU xenophobia and British xenophobia. I don't think it is disingenuous for me to read it that way.

I'm also not convinced that the FBPE people are all clapping like seals for that particular statement by Borrell.

 

[The39thStep]

You said it makes you think the right side won, which is quite different to what you're saying in the post above which seems to be that there is no difference between EU xenophobia and British xenophobia. I don't think it is disingenuous for me to read it that way.

I'm also not convinced that the FBPE people are all clapping like seals for that particular statement by Borrell.

How are these FBPE types responding to Borrell’s statements ? . I haven’t seen any indignation from any on Twitter , mind you a lot of these types have little idea about who is who , what is said and what happens on the EU unless they retweet something thats in their timeline .