Alcohol: regulatory watch

[Sasaferrato]

I've known problem drinkers who were physically addicted to booze, to the extent that they required medication and ideally supervision when detoxing to avoid going into convulsions. I've also known problem drinkers who were suddenly deprived of alcohol for whatever reason and didn't suffer these effects, although they were pretty pissed off. From this I rather unscientifically conclude that some people become physically dependent on alcohol while others don't, but as members of the latter group can damage their health through excessive alcohol consumption as much as those of the former, the distinction can be academic (although it might have some value in determining the most effective treatment).

Yep, my direct observation also.

When you grow up in a small community, or later live in one, the familial tendency towards alcoholism becomes very clear.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I would be in favour of two simple measures that I believe would be helpful. One is quite easy to implement in law. The second isn't. Neither is likely to happen.

1) ETHANOL to be printed in readable letters on labels.

2) People should stop talking about drugs and alcohol. Alcohol is a drug. If you're talking about alcohol, call it one. People have been taking mood-altering substances since they worked out how to, and that isn't likely to change. Unfortunately, this can sometimes have detrimental consequences for the invidual and society. Calling all these substances 'drugs' and focusing on their effects, along with what to do when consumption becomes a direct or indirect problem, would be better than the mess we're in.

I would happily ban the phrase "alcohol and drugs". Educational material and news media should be required ultimately just to use the term "drugs", or "drugs (including alcohol)" until the idea beds in.

 

[ouirdeaux]

It's time we had a grown up conversation about drugs

It's been time since I was born, and I think I'm nearly as old as you are. We don't seem to be any nearer now than then. Indeed, in some ways it's worse, at least as far as the UK is concerned -- heroin addicts can no longer get scripts from doctors, and we've seen the return of Reefer Madness-style talk about cannabis, which was considered ludicrously outdated when I was growing up.

 

[Sasaferrato]

That doesn't make sense. So you think a person is born an alcoholic? What if they are born in a dry country and never taste an alcoholic drink in their life?

Is a heroin addict who has kicked the habit still a heroin addict?

Someone born with a genetic tendency to alcoholism will still have that tendency whether they drink or not. If they live in a dry country, then of course they won't become alcohol dependent. I have heard though that in 'dry' countries, the 'dry' tends to be at the lower end of the social scale.

 

[TopCat]

When fags got compulsory grot packaging there was talk of this being applied to bottles of booze. That this didn’t happen was down to class and cash in my view.

Smokers are predominantly working class whilst wine drinkers are not. So nothing got done as this type of legislation is all about grinding the face of the poor.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Attachment and addiction to alcohol has more to do with mental health issues IME. It's strange how society freaks out about benzos when alcohol can have broadly the same calming effect, which can be addictive if you're looking for it.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Is a heroin addict who has kicked the habit still a heroin addict?

But I'm not talking about people who've kicked their addiction. I'm questioning your opinion that people are born alcoholic. How can they be? Are people born heroin or cocaine addicts? Or do they become addicts by continuous use of an addictive substance?

 

[Sasaferrato]

It's been time since I was born, and I think I'm nearly as old as you are. We don't seem to be any nearer now than then. Indeed, in some ways it's worse -- heroin addicts can no longer get scripts from doctors, and we've seen the return of Reefer Madness-style talk about cannabis, which was considered ludicrously outdated when I was growing up.

I don't doubt that cannabis can unmask psychosis, I don't know enough to say whether the psychosis would have manifested later or not if cannabis wasn't involved.

Having seen people become quite paranoid on cannabis, there is no doubt that is also a 'thing'. I've never experienced paranoia myself, but if I did I would stop.

 

[Sasaferrato]

But I'm not talking about people who've kicked their addiction. I'm questioning your opinion that people are born alcoholic. How can they be? Are people born heroin or cocaine addicts? Or do they become addicts by continuous use of an addictive substance?

There has been extensive research on the subject.

Genetics of Alcohol Use Disorder | National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA)

How do genes influence alcohol use disorder? Alcohol use disorder (AUD) often seems to run in families, and we may hear about scientific studies of an “alcoholism gene.” Genetics certainly influence our likelihood of developing AUD, but the story isn’t so simple. Research shows that genes are...

www.niaaa.nih.gov

Have a look for yourself, there is quite a lot of research.

 

[ouirdeaux]

But I'm not talking about people who've kicked their addiction. I'm questioning your opinion that people are born alcoholic. How can they be? Are people born heroin or cocaine addicts? Or do they become addicts by continuous use of an addictive substance?

Strictly speaking, we're talking about a genetic predisposition. Everyone, as far as I'm aware, will become addicted to heroin or barbiturates or benzodiazepenes, if they are have them administered to them regularly. Cocaine is not physically addictive, but is so powerfully psychologically addictive that this doesn't make much practical difference. With alcohol some people are predisposed to physical addiction, others not, but again this may not make much difference in the problems faced by someone who drinks to excess.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

But I'm not talking about people who've kicked their addiction. I'm questioning your opinion that people are born alcoholic. How can they be? Are people born heroin or cocaine addicts? Or do they become addicts by continuous use of an addictive substance?

There are genetic factors that can contribute to becoming an alcoholic. There are other factors like social group standards, depression, etc.

The alcohol use disorders are fairly typical of most complex genetic conditions in that multiple genetic influences combine together to explain approximately 40% to 60% of the risk. One useful approach for identifying specific genes related to alcoholism involves identifying a population in which known genetic factors are controlled and using genome scan and/or case-control, association approaches to search for specific genes. Several characteristics, or endophenotypes, have been identified as both genetically influenced and contributing toward the risk for alcoholism, including alcohol-metabolizing enzymes, the low level of response to alcohol, and electrophysiological measures.

Genetics of the risk for alcoholism - PubMed

This paper reviews the literature on the importance of genetic influences in the development of alcohol abuse and dependence (alcoholism). The alcohol use disorders are fairly typical of most complex genetic conditions in that multiple genetic influences combine together to explain approximately...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This review summarizes recent findings from human research regarding genetic influences in alcohol abuse and dependence. Genes explain about 50% of the vulnerabilities leading to heavy drinking and associated problems. Most genetic influences appear to impact at least four prominent intermediate characteristics (phenotypes) that interact with environmental events to produce the alcoholism risk: a flushing response to alcohol; a low level of response to alcohol; personality characteristics that include impulsivity, sensation seeking, and neuronal and behavioral disinhibition; and through psychiatric symptoms. Polymorphisms potentially related to each phenotype have been identified, and studies were conducted to evaluate their characteristics in the context of environmental and psychosocial forces. A search is underway to identify genes that contribute to these phenotypes; the ultimate goals of which are better prediction of how to best prevent heavy drinking and problems, identifying individuals who may respond best to existing treatments, and development of new therapeutic approaches based on the biological underpinnings of alcoholism.

An overview of genetic influences in alcoholism - PubMed

This review summarizes recent findings from human research regarding genetic influences in alcohol abuse and dependence. Genes explain about 50% of the vulnerabilities leading to heavy drinking and associated problems. Most genetic influences appear to impact at least four prominent intermediate...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[pogofish]

I thought I'd start a thread about the creeping, but constant social shift which is, perhaps, seeing alcohol go the same way as tobacco, albeit much more slowly and less evenly. That is, through government/institutional demonization and restriction, which perhaps already reflects a wider, spontaneous social shift away from drinking, and seeks to exacerbate it.

I was inspired by this news: What's behind Canada's drastic new alcohol guidance

And to a lesser extent this: Anger brews in Italy over Ireland’s plans for alcohol health warnings

Stuff like the minimum unit price in Scotland, health warnings being made more visible, increases in age limits, bans on advertising or other restrictions... let's collect it here. Because, as crazy as it may sound now with the high streets still full of drinkers every weekend, that may one day be a thing of the past.

Things this thread isn't about:
1. Your personal stories of alcoholism or giving up the booze
2. Alcohol laws in traditionally teetotal cultures (e.g. the Muslim world and much of India)

The time for this was a decade or more ago when the Tobacco restrictions seriously started. Most of the interests pushing for them in the background, particularly RWJF and their associated companies made it pretty clear they only regarded Tobacco as the warm-up - Alcohol was the real/ultimmate goal. In the years since, they have steadily moved their lobbying/campaigning over to it and concentrated on shaping policy, not medical or scientific responses.

 

[NoXion]

The time for this was a decade or more ago when the Tobacco restrictions seriously started. Most of the interests pushing for them in the background, particularly RWJF and their associated companies made it pretty clear they only regarded Tobacco as the warm-up - Alcohol was the real/ultimmate goal. In the years since, they have steadily moved their lobbying/campaigning over to it and concentrated on shaping policy, not medical or scientific responses.

What is RWJF?

 

[pogofish]

The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation - One of if not the biggest and wealthiest US corporate "charitable" healthcare foundations.

As well as actively developing and promoting policies leading to bans and stricter legal regulation, it has been behind a lot of public health/control freakery these last few decades and it has a distinct tendency to want the subjects of its campaigns to be hived out of public health systems and in to US-style insurance based operations instead, often managed/provided by their commercial associates.

Used to be run by the guy on the left till he became ambassador to the UK:

Then there is the matter of their joint studies with the execrable Rand Corporation that "proved" how the propensity for addiction of various types in marginalised and impoverished indigenous and immigrant communities was absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with racism, direct or systemic..!

 

[pbsmooth]

I find alcohol-free anything completely baffling. Why not buy a bottle of some very nice soft drink instead? I spent quite a while in my youth trying to get used to the awful taste of alcohol. I think that younger people gravitate towards badges of adulthood.

erm...because I like the taste of beer but don't want the alcohol. I don't think it's a young people thing, it's a 30s/40s thing for people who no longer want hangovers or need to get drunk but like the taste of beer - and prefer it to the alternatives of coke, fizzy stuff generally, water etc.

 

[bmd]

erm...because I like the taste of beer but don't want the alcohol. I don't think it's a young people thing, it's a 30s/40s thing for people who no longer want hangovers or need to get drunk but like the taste of beer - and prefer it to the alternatives of coke, fizzy stuff generally, water etc.

Cup of tea? Coffee? Any of the many other beverages without loads of sugar and the tang of hops that don't hit your wallet in a "you paid that for beer with alcohol in so I'm sure you're fine with paying exactly the same for it without?" No? Just me then.

 

[bmd]

It's been time since I was born, and I think I'm nearly as old as you are. We don't seem to be any nearer now than then. Indeed, in some ways it's worse, at least as far as the UK is concerned -- heroin addicts can no longer get scripts from doctors, and we've seen the return of Reefer Madness-style talk about cannabis, which was considered ludicrously outdated when I was growing up.

There's many reasons why people don't get scripts from doctors these days and on balance I think that's a good thing. I'd be interested in the Reefer Madness stuff.

 

[NoXion]

The reclassification of cannabis as Class B was excused with bullshit that skirted close to Reefer Madness. It was certainly done against scientific advice, wasn't that around the time that Professor David Nutt got given the heave-ho?

 

[DotCommunist]

The reclassification of cannabis as Class B was excused with bullshit that skirted close to Reefer Madness. It was certainly done against scientific advice, wasn't that around the time that Professor David Nutt got given the heave-ho?

Cannabis just got more serious

Drug moved back into class B as home secretary worries about strong 'skunk' on the streets – but is it a backwards step?

www.theguardian.com

Jacqui Smith, a name that lives on in infamy

 

[mojo pixy]

Does alcohol have any health benefits? There have been some inconclusive studies showing very slight benefits of drinking a tiny bit of red wine, but those slight benefits come from the polyphenols which come from the red and purple grape skins. NOT from the alcohol!

someone at a party once tried go convince me the main health benefit of a regular alcohol intake was that it keeps your liver used to dealing with a poison therefore it hardens your constitution against poisons. I was not convinced.

Cup of tea? Coffee? Any of the many other beverages without loads of sugar and the tang of hops that don't hit your wallet in a "you paid that for beer with alcohol in so I'm sure you're fine with paying exactly the same for it without?" No? Just me then.

alcohol does something special to the flavour though, gives it a bite that nothing else does. That's just the flavour, before we even get to the lightheadedness etc. There are some wines that are among the most delicious liquids that exist, more than their respective juices and specifically because of the fermentation. I know this is irrelevant Im just fascinated by food we prefer when it's gone rotten in some way

 

[Fuzzy]

its a real eye openner when you remove yourself from the world of alcohol how much of society seems to revolve around having a drink. the social acceptability of something so addictive is mind boggling.

 

[pbsmooth]

its a real eye openner when you remove yourself from the world of alcohol how much of society seems to revolve around having a drink. the social acceptability of something so addictive is mind boggling.

100%. It's mad how entrenched drinking alcohol is in so much of life.

 

[ouirdeaux]

Having seen people become quite paranoid on cannabis, there is no doubt that is also a 'thing'. I've never experienced paranoia myself, but if I did I would stop.

I experienced paranoia when I first used cannabis. I remember being relatively young, carrying some weed I had newly acquired in a strange location of the city, coming back on public transport. I knew everyone could see I was stoned, and that there was someone approaching me with a flick knife in his hand, because he thought I'd be carrying weed, so I obviously wouldn't report any mugging to the police.

Of course, he just walked right past me, with whatever was in his hand that was unlikely to have been a knife. He probably hadn't even noticed me. That was the sort of thing that taught me that if I feel paranoid after smoking, I can just file it away as a result of smoking, and it loses its menace.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Well done The Torygraph for conflating Canada's new advice on alcohol with the decriminalisation of illegal drugs. I must have missed the bit where Trudeau is advising only one hit of crack a week.

Canadians told to have two drinks a week, as crack is decriminalised

 

[tep]

someone at a party once tried go convince me the main health benefit of a regular alcohol intake was that it keeps your liver used to dealing with a poison therefore it hardens your constitution against poisons. I was not convinced. alcohol does something special to the flavour though, gives it a bite that nothing else does. That's just the flavour, before we even get to the lightheadedness etc. There are some wines that are among the most delicious liquids that exist, more than their respective juices and specifically because of the fermentation. I know this is irrelevant Im just fascinated by food we prefer when it's gone rotten in some way

Does alcohol have any health benefits?

There have been some inconclusive studies showing very slight benefits of drinking a tiny bit of red wine, but those slight benefits come from the polyphenols which come from the red and purple grape skins. NOT from the alcohol!

Alcohol acts as a solvent for those polyphenols that makes them bioavailable.

 

[ouirdeaux]

Your liver doesn't need to learn how to deal with alcohol. That's what its there for, because alcohol is a by-product of natural processes. Drinking additional alcohol is overloading it.

 

[Flavour]

its a real eye openner when you remove yourself from the world of alcohol how much of society seems to revolve around having a drink. the social acceptability of something so addictive is mind boggling.

i think it's one of the things that young Westerners are most culture shocked by when they go traveling to parts of the world where alcohol is not at the center of socializing, nor even widely available.

 

[Pickman's model]

someone at a party once tried go convince me the main health benefit of a regular alcohol intake was that it keeps your liver used to dealing with a poison therefore it hardens your constitution against poisons. I was not convinced. alcohol does something special to the flavour though, gives it a bite that nothing else does. That's just the flavour, before we even get to the lightheadedness etc. There are some wines that are among the most delicious liquids that exist, more than their respective juices and specifically because of the fermentation. I know this is irrelevant Im just fascinated by food we prefer when it's gone rotten in some way

Port and stilton

 

[bmd]

I would be in favour of two simple measures that I believe would be helpful. One is quite easy to implement in law. The second isn't. Neither is likely to happen.

1) ETHANOL to be printed in readable letters on labels.

2) People should stop talking about drugs and alcohol. Alcohol is a drug. If you're talking about alcohol, call it one. People have been taking mood-altering substances since they worked out how to, and that isn't likely to change. Unfortunately, this can sometimes have detrimental consequences for the invidual and society. Calling all these substances 'drugs' and focusing on their effects, along with what to do when consumption becomes a direct or indirect problem, would be better than the mess we're in.

OH. MY. GOD, YESSS! Alcohol is not the posh cousin of cannabis. It's the worst psychoactive drug for deaths per head of population. The reason it is parsed out by name is because of prohibition. Simple as. Call it what it is! GAWWWWD!

 

[BristolEcho]

Cup of tea? Coffee? Any of the many other beverages without loads of sugar and the tang of hops that don't hit your wallet in a "you paid that for beer with alcohol in so I'm sure you're fine with paying exactly the same for it without?" No? Just me then.

But then you'd don't like people drinking tea and coffee in pubs?

I'm not sure that I agree with Rimbaud assertion that people are not using cafes later etc. I tend to be more of a cafe surfer these days if I'm not out clubbing and they are always busy till late. Many of them do sell alcohol too, but it's not the focus.