Alcohol: regulatory watch

[bmd]

That doesn't make sense. So you think a person is born an alcoholic? What if they are born in a dry country and never taste an alcoholic drink in their life?

Then they're forever pausing to think "what's missing? I feel like I want to drink. Not water. Not... a juice-based libation, not tea or coffee but something.... else..." It's only when they finally drink some alcohol that every part of their life makes sense. I'm being silly but tbf to Sass there is a lot of evidence that alcohol finds a home in people who have a lower sensitivity to it. So they won't feel the negative effects of alcohol like a hangover and it will take much more for them to become intoxicated but they will become tolerant to the effects of alcohol much faster. All of that doesn't necessarily add up to a problem with alcohol but it lays the groundwork as opposed to someone who does not have those genetic markers.

 

[bmd]

But then you'd don't like people drinking tea and coffee in pubs?

I'm not sure that I agree with Rimbaud assertion that people are not using cafes later etc. I tend to be more of a cafe surfer these days if I'm not out clubbing and they are always busy till late. Many of them do sell alcohol too, but it's not the focus.

Umn, no, I don't like drinking tea or coffee in a pub and that quote of mine is actually in response to someone saying that they prefer alcohol-free beer rather than anything else. However, I was thinking about why that was and I do think that drinking culture i.e. having a beer in your hand is about the psychology of being with your friend group as much as anything else. Why do people drink alcohol? To be inebriated. Where do they drink it? Unless you have an issue then it's about socialising. So we equate a beer in hand to those good times. Take out the ethanol and that feeling is still there but without the hangover. So we buy alcohol-free beer for a good time. That's crazy, imo, but (if I'm right) I can understand it.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Then they're forever pausing to think "what's missing? I feel like I want to drink. Not water. Not... a juice-based libation, not tea or coffee but something.... else..." It's only when they finally drink some alcohol that every part of their life makes sense.

That's a lot to do with mental health though. I feel like that a lot of the time, but it's to do with anxiety, depression, self esteem issues - and thoughts can be directed to other drugs, not just alcohol. Life is better with a boost or something to take the edge off it.

 

[bmd]

That's a lot to do with mental health though. I feel like that a lot of the time, but it's to do with anxiety, depression, self esteem issues - and thoughts can be directed to other drugs, not just alcohol.

Of course and I would add that it is also about that furrow we've ploughed into our brains about an escape from those feelings. Our brains remind us that we have a way of dealing with those thoughtrs and feelings. Then our shit mental health kicks in and we are vulnerable to relapse. It's fucking hard just to see an empty can of beer on the street. I am so so lucky in that I never liked alcohol but if I saw a discarded needle then that was a trigger for me.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Creation of social spaces where alcohol isn't served, or is served almost as an aside would help. Coffee bars open into the evenings, decent hot and cold drinks sold in bars and pubs front and centre instead of as an afterthought for designated drivers.

The culture of drinking in the UK is pretty appalling and anything that makes people think about their relationship with it is a good thing in my book.

And yes, fuck the companies selling bottles of non-alcoholic gin for 30 or 40 quid.

I’m suprised that coffee chains haven’t cottoned on to people wanting an evening socialise without booze

Even amongst my ropey bunch of dengenerate boozers we are slowly coming round to the idea of meeting up for coffee rather than pub (only occasionally mind)

 

[not-bono-ever]

Relevant but maybe not - Mexico probably has stricter labelling and advice on products than many other places. Soft drinks have warning lights on them about sugar content and the like. As much as Mexico has a massive domestic alko market, I’m pretty sure US exporters to Mexico have to jazz up their normal legal minimum standards labelling to meet Mexican regs. That in itself is pretty telling for the famously prohibitive us alko retail regime

 

[not-bono-ever]

Not that it stops them from chugging the stuff with gusto

 

[not-bono-ever]

On an anecdotal basis, the constant requests fir ID and age enforcement in some of the supposed advanced countries might in itself be counterproductive. My kids often preload before going out because it’s cheaper but actually everyone in the group needing ID is a pain in the arse & not everyone wants to take a passport out when they are on a sesh.

Having experienced Merican students viewing alcohol as something verboten and illegal, it doesn’t stop the sesh, it’s just drives it underground

 

[Mrs Miggins]

I’m suprised that coffee chains haven’t cottoned on to people wanting an evening socialise without booze

Even amongst my ropey bunch of dengenerate boozers we are slowly coming round to the idea of meeting up for coffee rather than pub (only occasionally mind)

I don't really want to go "for a coffee" though. I still want to go to the pub - I just don't want to drink booze. People I go out with want to drink booze so they are not going to want to go somewhere that doesn't have booze.

I just want the moon on a stick obviously

 

[ouirdeaux]

The continent seems to manage it. Sure, there are raucous dives where the emphasis is on booze, and frankly they'd be hard to take sober, but there are plenty of places where you can drink booze or coffee, and not feel like you're odd for doing either. They're likely to have decent food as well.

 

[Rimbaud]

But then you'd don't like people drinking tea and coffee in pubs?

I'm not sure that I agree with Rimbaud assertion that people are not using cafes later etc. I tend to be more of a cafe surfer these days if I'm not out clubbing and they are always busy till late. Many of them do sell alcohol too, but it's not the focus.

Depends where you live. I can't find any cafes open later than 6 or 7 in Newcastle. If you want to hang out in the evening it's pub or restaurant.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

The continent seems to manage it. Sure, there are raucous dives where the emphasis is on booze, and frankly they'd be hard to take sober, but there are plenty of places where you can drink booze or coffee, and not feel like you're odd for doing either. They're likely to have decent food as well.

Yes exactly this and I wish things could be like that here.

Sadly, the pub culture is completely different in the UK and I'm not sure it will ever change to be sufficiently like the rest of Europe. There's been a bit of a shift with most pubs now providing some sort of food but there's a long way to go.

 

[pbsmooth]

Cup of tea? Coffee? Any of the many other beverages without loads of sugar and the tang of hops that don't hit your wallet in a "you paid that for beer with alcohol in so I'm sure you're fine with paying exactly the same for it without?" No? Just me then.

3 rounds of coffee 8-11pm with my mates in the pub? erm... and have you seen how expensive soft drinks are? they're the biggest mark up in pubs, always have been.

 

[Elpenor]

When I lived in Reading the Starbucks in the oracle riverside (shopping centre) was full of people until 10pm I think; without knowing their nationality - as I didn’t go round asking them - I would say most seemed to be of an eastern Mediterranean / Arab / South Asian heritage. Talking, drinking coffee, smoking.

Reminded of me the old guys in Cyprus I used to see playing backgammon outside what I think was their version of the British legion

 

[friendofdorothy]

A gateway to alcohol? I've never thought of them like that. People drink alcohol-free beers because they are giving up or cutting down on alcohol, but still want to join in with their friends at the pub.

Certainly the people I know who drink non alco beers have health conditions or take medications that make alcohol dangerous. Or are driving. Allows them to feel at home with a crowd in the pub and is a good alternative to Coca-Cola.

There is still too much 'have a drink!' 'Why aren't you drinking?' 'let me buy you a proper drink!' attitude going on in pubs and bars. If people don't want to drink they should not be questioned or coerced.

Must say I like that pubs do teas and coffee now, as well as the non alco beers and gins, it leads to more relaxed meetings between my drinking and non drinking friends.

Considering a lot of the cost of wine, beers and spirits is tax, allegedly to persuade us all to drink less, why aren't soft drinks and alco free alternatives a lot cheaper?

 

[bmd]

I bet Flavour is loving the direction this thread has taken.

I just don't think it's that simple or that no consideration at all should be given to the wine industry because some people are addicted to booze. It's putting it in the same camp as cigarettes which is big tobacco and way more addictive.

I would be far more reluctant to gift a bottle of wine to someone if it had images of a dead persons fucked up liver splashed all over the front with 'DRINKING KILLS' or whatever. Be a bit of a mood kill on a romantic evening meal at a restaurant too.

Well, the alcohol industry is akin to the gambling industry. When the fun stops, stop. LOL. Just say no, anyone? Is gambling ever fun for the person who cannot escape it's grip? When the misery starts, stop. How about that one instead?

Anyyway, some people, gawwwd, they ruin it for everyone. Sorry, just having a slight go. I think it is our responsibility as a society to look to our less well-off for guidance. Less well-off in health or socio-economic factors, for example. Or do we simply accept that there will be fun casualties and that it's a Darwinesque survival of the fittest, Lord of the Flies kinda deal?

 

[bmd]

Certainly the people I know who drink non alco beers have health conditions or take medications that make alcohol dangerous. Or are driving. Allows them to feel at home with a crowd in the pub and is a good alternative to Coca-Cola.

There is still too much 'have a drink!' 'Why aren't you drinking?' 'let me buy you a proper drink!' attitude going on in pubs and bars. If people don't want to drink they should not be questioned or coerced.

Must say I like that pubs do teas and coffee now, as well as the non alco beers and gins, it leads to more relaxed meetings between my drinking and non drinking friends.

Considering a lot of the cost of wine, beers and spirits is tax, allegedly to persuade us all to drink less, why aren't soft drinks and alco free alternatives a lot cheaper?

Yeah never considered people who want to join in but don't want to stand out.

This, I think, links to your first point and, imo, is why 0% beer etc is popular. It is an image thing and I do believe your last point has the answer to this and will be taken up by some entrepreneurial person. The next 'Spoons perhaps? Rather not but then I would love a place to go out, listen to music and not have to navigate people high on alcohol.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Yeah never considered people who want to join in but don't want to stand out.

I go out with a group of older people regularly, quite a few of us won't drink, can't drink or don't drink like we used to do anymore.

The bottles of Adnams non alco ale, and the zero lagers, look very similar to their alcoholic counterparts. So much so I was shocked to see someone I know who is a committed non drinker on health grounds, drinking one. I had to ask, otherwise I would not have known.

We find spoons do a decent range of non alco beers, as well as teas coffees etc

 

[bmd]

I go out with a group of older people regularly, quite a few of us won't drink, can't drink or don't drink like we used to do anymore.

The bottles of Adnams non alco ale, and the zero lagers, look very similar to their alcoholic counterparts. So much so I was shocked to see someone I know who is a committed non drinker on health grounds, drinking one. I had to ask, otherwise I would not have known.

We find spoons do a decent range of non alco beers, as well as teas coffees etc

I find alcohol really difficult these days. It interrupts my sleep, dehydrates me and affects my mental health. When I was younger I did not even consider those things, or if I did their impact wasn't enough to make me think about stopping using it. That article I linked to earlier about under 18s and alcohol-free beer talks a bit about the look of each bottle compared to their alcoholic counterparts. I find that quite intereting in that it's a kind of Cycle of Change thing, imo. Once we begin to call alcoholic drinks Full-Content or whatever then I think the wheels will truly have begun to move.

Spoons is a good example of a pub where I feel less meh about sitting and having a coffee.

 

[skyscraper101]

I bet Flavour is loving the direction this thread has taken.


Well, the alcohol industry is akin to the gambling industry. When the fun stops, stop. LOL. Just say no, anyone? Is gambling ever fun for the person who cannot escape it's grip? When the misery starts, stop. How about that one instead?

Anyyway, some people, gawwwd, they ruin it for everyone. Sorry, just having a slight go. I think it is our responsibility as a society to look to our less well-off for guidance. Less well-off in health or socio-economic factors, for example. Or do we simply accept that there will be fun casualties and that it's a Darwinesque survival of the fittest, Lord of the Flies kinda deal?

I just think it's a more grey area than gambling or big tobacco.

Enjoying a bottle of wine, or a pint of ale or something has more cultural significance and more small business dependency through thousands of pubs and restaurants. Gambling or smoking tobacco - irrespective of how they compare in the societal misery stakes - don't really compare on that level. They rake in billions and do very little good for society. Does that mean I think smoking should be outlowed, or casinos or the lottery should be banned. No. I just think there are measured responses that can taken such as raising the smoking age or banning gambling advertising entirely in sport.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any reform of alcohol laws. E.g. I wouldn't care less if alcohol advertising and sponsorship of sport was done away with tomorrow but, do I think putting images of death and killer warnings in place of labels on bottles of Chianti or pump handles of bitter in the pubs a measured way to combat alcoholism, a la fag packets? No.

 

[klang]

The continent seems to manage it. Sure, there are raucous dives where the emphasis is on booze, and frankly they'd be hard to take sober, but there are plenty of places where you can drink booze or coffee, and not feel like you're odd for doing either. They're likely to have decent food as well.

I never found these places, at least no more or less than in the uk. 'Drinking culture is better on the continent' is a myth.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Certainly the people I know who drink non alco beers have health conditions or take medications that make alcohol dangerous. Or are driving. Allows them to feel at home with a crowd in the pub and is a good alternative to Coca-Cola.

There is still too much 'have a drink!' 'Why aren't you drinking?' 'let me buy you a proper drink!' attitude going on in pubs and bars. If people don't want to drink they should not be questioned or coerced.

Must say I like that pubs do teas and coffee now, as well as the non alco beers and gins, it leads to more relaxed meetings between my drinking and non drinking friends.

Considering a lot of the cost of wine, beers and spirits is tax, allegedly to persuade us all to drink less, why aren't soft drinks and alco free alternatives a lot cheaper?

Pure filthy profiteering

 

[friedaweed]

Does wine taste anything like grape juice plus ethanol?

In Bulgaria yes.

 

[Flavour]

Here we go, Portugal join in with Italy in complaint over Irish regulatory proposals:

Portugal opposing Irish alcohol rule

The Portuguese Government has contested an Irish regulation on the labelling of alcoholic beverages, which could potentially affect national wine exports.

www.theportugalnews.com

Meanwhile in Oz the government are telling retailer in one specific region (NT, famously the poorest region, as well as the one with the highest proportion of indigenous peoples) to crack down on sales ("self-regulate") or else... insert comment about systemic racism at your discretion

NT government issues ultimatum to alcohol retailers amid Alice Springs crime wave

Northern Territory police minister warns businesses to self-regulate or authorities will toughen laws to help curb rising street crime and family violence

www.theguardian.com

 

[friedaweed]

I'm just over the border in Wales and we have the minimum pricing on alcohol which means a mile further down the road I can get more for my buck on offers that we don't get in the local supermarket like 4 for 3 on cans or 4 bottles for £6. We have the 25% of six bottles of wine in the local supermarkets but the minimum bottle price is £7 whereas down the road in Chester it's £5. Same when I head up to Scotland so I usually take any wine and beer we need with me and then just buy indi local beer when I get there.

To me the only people who seem to be befitting from these rules are the retailers.

When I head up to Fort William again in a couple of weeks I'll take my mate a bottle of Scotch because its so much cheaper than him buying it on Skye where he lives. The same Island it's made on.

 

[bmd]

The reclassification of cannabis as Class B was excused with bullshit that skirted close to Reefer Madness. It was certainly done against scientific advice, wasn't that around the time that Professor David Nutt got given the heave-ho?

Well yes but that was before a Tory family got the rights to producing opium in this country. Prof. Nutt is alive and well and advising on stuff like the UK medical marijuana trial, Project 21. Impossible to keep a good one down, y'see.

 

[bmd]

The continent seems to manage it. Sure, there are raucous dives where the emphasis is on booze, and frankly they'd be hard to take sober, but there are plenty of places where you can drink booze or coffee, and not feel like you're odd for doing either. They're likely to have decent food as well.

I just think it's a more grey area than gambling or big tobacco.

Enjoying a bottle of wine, or a pint of ale or something has more cultural significance and more small business dependency through thousands of pubs and restaurants. Gambling or smoking tobacco - irrespective of how they compare in the societal misery stakes - don't really compare on that level. They rake in billions and do very little good for society. Does that mean I think smoking should be outlowed, or casinos or the lottery should be banned. No. I just think there are measured responses that can taken such as raising the smoking age or banning gambling advertising entirely in sport.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any reform of alcohol laws. E.g. I wouldn't care less if alcohol advertising and sponsorship of sport was done away with tomorrow but, do I think putting images of death and killer warnings in place of labels on bottles of Chianti or pump handles of bitter in the pubs a measured way to combat alcoholism, a la fag packets? No.

I think you're saying that the use of alcohol is more beneficial to society than gambling or tobacco? I agree with you about tobacco but then I would because I don't smoke any more. Betting, as it's known to those who love it, is very beneficial to them. They love a flutter. I worked in a bookies for a couple of years. I really liked the punters and also dealt with the people who simply couldn't help themselves. I do think that gambling profits come off the back of people who have a problem with it. I also worked at a big Tesco, on BWS or beers, wines and spirits. Not for long, 6 months if that , but long enough to see how much wine is sold to middle class families, craft beers to beards, lager to the lads and prosecco to the lasses. It absolutely does have a social element to it, imo, if only to iron out the creases and round off the edges after a long old week. It is also addictive and destroys lives, is a toxin and kills about 8,000 people a year in the UK as well as causes untold harms on the roads and our high streets on a weekend.

 

[skyscraper101]

I think you're saying that the use of alcohol is more beneficial to society than gambling or tobacco? I agree with you about tobacco but then I would because I don't smoke any more. Betting, as it's known to those who love it, is very beneficial to them. They love a flutter. I worked in a bookies for a couple of years. I really liked the punters and also dealt with the people who simply couldn't help themselves. I do think that gambling profits come off the back of people who have a problem with it. I also worked at a big Tesco, on BWS or beers, wines and spirits. Not for long, 6 months if that , but long enough to see how much wine is sold to middle class families, craft beers to beards, lager to the lads and prosecco to the lasses. It absolutely does have a social element to it, imo, if only to iron out the creases and round off the edges after a long old week. It is also addictive and destroys lives, is a toxin and kills about 8,000 people a year in the UK as well as causes untold harms on the roads and our high streets on a weekend.

Sure people love a flutter but it's been under-regulated for way too long. Especially online. You can't watch a game of football without being bombarded with BET365 ads and Ray Winstone's head in the UK.

All I'm saying is putting cig-style death images and massive warnings on fancy bottles of wine and micro-brewery tipple is overkill and will more negatively affect small business from breweries and vineyards through to restaurants and pubs. The economic and societal comparisons with big tobacco or gambling is not comparing like with like.

 

[skyscraper101]

If people are loading up in supermarkets on cheap discounted booze, then supermarkets should be better targeted for stark health warnings, for example. Going after each individual bottle irrespective of where they're sold is too much.

 

[BristolEcho]

If people are loading up in supermarkets on cheap discounted booze, then supermarkets should be better targeted for stark health warnings, for example. Going after each individual bottle irrespective of where they're sold is too much.

So target people that mainly use supermarkets which are cheaper, but don't ruin the aesthetic of a bottle from those that can afford fancy wine sold at a restaurant, or higher end bar?