Alcohol: regulatory watch

[ElizabethofYork]

Because it's putting wine in the same danger zone as cigs which obviously have no health benefit and only health detriment.

Wine can obviously be abused like anything else including food, soft drinks etc. But sticking a health warning label akin to a packet of fags is a bit OTT and will ruin the aesthetic of bottle displays in bars, and restaurants too. Again I haven't seen the design proposals, but 'stark' suggests something along those lines.

Does alcohol have any health benefits?

There have been some inconclusive studies showing very slight benefits of drinking a tiny bit of red wine, but those slight benefits come from the polyphenols which come from the red and purple grape skins. NOT from the alcohol!

 

[hegley]

Because it's putting wine in the same danger zone as cigs which obviously have no health benefit and only health detriment.

Wine can obviously be abused like anything else including food, soft drinks etc. But sticking a health warning label akin to a packet of fags is a bit OTT and will ruin the aesthetic of bottle displays in bars, and restaurants too. Again I haven't seen the design proposals, but 'stark' suggests something along those lines.

I'm pretty sure the health detriment of alcohol is downplayed currently, or willfully ignored in a lot of cases. I'm on a breast cancer forum and lots of women looking for information on lifestyle changes - but woebetide anyone that suggests that cutting down on alcohol as somewhere to start. "We're going through enough already", "A little of what you fancy" ... and that's just one NCD. Perhaps if there were illustrative warning labels people might take a bit more notice.

 

[bmd]

A gateway to alcohol? I've never thought of them like that. People drink alcohol-free beers because they are giving up or cutting down on alcohol, but still want to join in with their friends at the pub.

Well, I'm thinking of future generations. I don't believe that this is going to replace alcohol but I do believe that, eventually, the alcohol industry will aim it at people under 18, as well as every other demographic. Here's an article about people under 18 and alcohol-free drinks.

 

[bmd]

I agree to some extent - drinking should not be the default social activity that it is in this country. However moving against pubs without really creating any alternative places to socialise feels like part of a trend of greater atomisation. Young people drink less but also spend less time socialising face to face - and loneliness and social isolation are far more dangerous to your health than moderate alcohol use.

Pubs are a place for a thin section of society but I can see them being more inclusive without the alcohol and, say, more live music or art exhibitions or talks on how to stop wondering where to buy alcohol.

 

[NoXion]

Speaking as someone who regularly drinks, the idea that alcohol-removed drinks are a "gateway" to anything other than disappointment is risible. Alcohol contributes to the overall flavour of a drink, you have to add unhealthy amounts of sugar in order to mask it.

Also, I still think it's weird that there's this anti-alcohol push happening when it's looking like the next generations are actually going to be drinking less than previous ones. So what is driving this? It feels a bit like a moral panic.

 

[skyscraper101]

Does alcohol have any health benefits?

There have been some inconclusive studies showing very slight benefits of drinking a tiny bit of red wine, but those slight benefits come from the polyphenols which come from the red and purple grape skins. NOT from the alcohol!

I'm mainly talking about wine. And even if there's no benefits at all to light/moderate wine drinking (and it's inconclusive as you say), I'd argue that light/moderate smoking is worse for you and others around you.

Anyway I've no issue with images of fucked up lungs and health warnings on cigarettes because big tobacco, and also nobody's putting fag packets on display in a fancy restaurant or gifting a vintage packet of Rothmans for Christmas. I'm not even a particularly big wine drinker, but it just seems overkill to be ruining the aesthetic of nice bottles because some people abuse alcohol.

 

[bmd]

Speaking as someone who regularly drinks, the idea that alcohol-removed drinks are a "gateway" to anything other than disappointment is risible. Alcohol contributes to the overall flavour of a drink, you have to add unhealthy amounts of sugar in order to mask it.

Also, I still think it's weird that there's this anti-alcohol push happening when it's looking like the next generations are actually going to be drinking less than previous ones. So what is driving this? It feels a bit like a moral panic.

Yes, I'm sure to you that's true. To me too. I find alcohol-free anything completely baffling. Why not buy a bottle of some very nice soft drink instead? I spent quite a while in my youth trying to get used to the awful taste of alcohol. I think that younger people gravitate towards badges of adulthood.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Speaking as someone who regularly drinks, the idea that alcohol-removed drinks are a "gateway" to anything other than disappointment is risible. Alcohol contributes to the overall flavour of a drink, you have to add unhealthy amounts of sugar in order to mask it.

Also, I still think it's weird that there's this anti-alcohol push happening when it's looking like the next generations are actually going to be drinking less than previous ones. So what is driving this? It feels a bit like a moral panic.

Some of this is cyclical. Have you talked to the younger generation? Most of the people I know younger than 30 seem to be absolute puritans compared to the baby boomers.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Yes, I'm sure to you that's true. To me too. I find alcohol-free anything completely baffling. Why not buy a bottle of some very nice soft drink instead? I spent quite a while in my youth trying to get used to the awful taste of alcohol. I think that younger people gravitate towards badges of adulthood.

I'd love to buy a nice soft drink but they are all super sweet and fizzy. I want a non-alcoholic drink that is neither of those things and I hope that the move towards more alcohol free options will bring more drinks that aren't just posh pop.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

I'm mainly talking about wine. And even if there's no benefits at all to light/moderate wine drinking (and it's inconclusive as you say), I'd argue that light/moderate smoking is worse for you and others around you.

Anyway I've no issue with images of fucked up lungs and health warnings on cigarettes because big tobacco, and also nobody's putting fag packets on display in a fancy restaurant or gifting a vintage packet of Rothmans for Christmas. I'm not even a particularly big wine drinker, but it just seems overkill to be ruining the aesthetic of nice bottles because some people abuse alcohol.

Alcohol is an addictive substance, and I don't think the aesthetic of the bottle should be more important than making that clear to people.

 

[bmd]

I'd love to buy a nice soft drink but they are all super sweet and fizzy. I want a non-alcoholic drink that is neither of those things and I hope that the move towards more alcohol free options will bring something more drinks that aren't just posh pop.

Fair enough. I have to admit that my biggest gripe against alcohol-free whatever is the price. How is a bottle of artisan gin £40 when it simply tastes like some kind of hedgerow fruit? But then I've just spent £50 on shrooms so go figure.

 

[skyscraper101]

Alcohol is an addictive substance, and I don't think the aesthetic of the bottle should be more important than making that clear to people.

I just don't think it's that simple or that no consideration at all should be given to the wine industry because some people are addicted to booze. It's putting it in the same camp as cigarettes which is big tobacco and way more addictive.

I would be far more reluctant to gift a bottle of wine to someone if it had images of a dead persons fucked up liver splashed all over the front with 'DRINKING KILLS' or whatever. Be a bit of a mood kill on a romantic evening meal at a restaurant too.

 

[Flavour]

Because they're entirely different things. Does wine taste anything like grape juice plus ethanol? Does Roquefort with the mold veins removed taste like milk? Does cold toast taste like untoasted bread?

they're not "entirely" different.

 

[NoXion]

Yes, I'm sure to you that's true. To me too. I find alcohol-free anything completely baffling. Why not buy a bottle of some very nice soft drink instead? I spent quite a while in my youth trying to get used to the awful taste of alcohol. I think that younger people gravitate towards badges of adulthood.

My impression is that alcohol-removed stuff is more popular with ex-drinkers rather than lifelong teetotallers.

Awful taste? I take it you weren't the kind of kid who asked their parents for sips of their wine.

I just don't think it's that simple or that no consideration at all should be given to the wine industry because some people are addicted to booze. It's putting it in the same camp as cigarettes which is big tobacco and way more addictive.

I would be far more reluctant to gift a bottle of wine to someone if it had images of a dead persons fucked up liver splashed all over the front with 'DRINKING KILLS' or whatever.

If they do go through with this asinine idea of making booze labelling ugly, then I can see a secondary market for more attractive sleeves for 75cl bottles.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Fair enough. I have to admit that my biggest gripe against alcohol-free whatever is the price. How is a bottle of artisan gin £40 when it simply tastes like some kind of hedgerow fruit?

I don't think I want artisan alcohol free gin at £40 a bottle no - I'd agree with that - I would just like to go to a pub where there's more to drink than soda and lime because fruit juice is too much and everything else is pop. I often have a coffee if I can but that can bring sneers from the people with me and it's a right pain for the bar staff.

 

[bmd]

I don't think I want artisan alcohol free gin now - I'd agree with that - I would just like to go to a pub where all I can really drink is soda and lime because fruit juice is too much and everything else is pop. I often have a coffee if I can but that can bring sneers from the people with me and it's a right pain for the bar staff.

Yeah, my gf likes to go to a pub for a coffee and it makes my toes curl because it takes ages but they sell it so I suppose that's that. I really hate having a coffee in a pub though.

 

[bmd]

I just don't think it's that simple or that no consideration at all should be given to the wine industry because some people are addicted to booze. It's putting it in the same camp as cigarettes which is big tobacco and way more addictive.

I would be far more reluctant to gift a bottle of wine to someone if it had images of a dead persons fucked up liver splashed all over the front with 'DRINKING KILLS' or whatever. Be a bit of a mood kill on a romantic evening meal at a restaurant too.

If we're talking about prohibiting toxic substances based on harms then alcohol should be more closely regulated and I do think that the public is becoming more open to that.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Yeah, my gf likes to go to a pub for a coffee and it makes my toes curl because it takes ages but they sell it so I suppose that's that. I really hate having a coffee in a pub though.

I usually end up at the art theater in town to see movies. Its not because I'm particularly attached to the art films, but because they offer tea and coffee rather than sugary sodas. Popcorn is cheap too and not overly oily.

 

[hegley]

I agree to some extent - drinking should not be the default social activity that it is in this country. However moving against pubs without really creating any alternative places to socialise feels like part of a trend of greater atomisation. Young people drink less but also spend less time socialising face to face - and loneliness and social isolation are far more dangerous to your health than moderate alcohol use.

Creation of social spaces where alcohol isn't served, or is served almost as an aside would help. Coffee bars open into the evenings, decent hot and cold drinks sold in bars and pubs front and centre instead of as an afterthought for designated drivers.

The culture of drinking in the UK is pretty appalling and anything that makes people think about their relationship with it is a good thing in my book.

And yes, fuck the companies selling bottles of non-alcoholic gin for 30 or 40 quid.

 

[Rimbaud]

Pubs are a place for a thin section of society but I can see them being more inclusive without the alcohol and, say, more live music or art exhibitions or talks on how to stop wondering where to buy alcohol.

I agree, but that doesn't seem to be happening. People are just staying at home more, which sucks.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Creation of social spaces where alcohol isn't served, or is served almost as an aside would help. Coffee bars open into the evenings, decent hot and cold drinks sold in bars and pubs front and centre instead of as an afterthought for designated drivers.

Not only that, but there needs to be more places where you can hang out in public and not spend a load of money. Even McDonalds will kick you out after 15-20 minutes.

 

[Yossarian]

The brewing industry in Canada is strong enough that I think the only effect of the new guidelines will be to replace one widely disregarded warning with another - if warning labels do come in, they'll probably be closer to what's seen on cannabis packaging than graphic depictions of liver cancer, domestic violence, etc.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

.....
The culture of drinking in the UK is pretty appalling and anything that makes people think about their relationship with it is a good thing in my book.

The thing I hate is that everything, literally everything we do has a drinking opportunity attached to it. Whatever it is, there's always a drink before, after and even during.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

I just don't think it's that simple or that no consideration at all should be given to the wine industry because some people are addicted to booze. It's putting it in the same camp as cigarettes which is big tobacco and way more addictive.

I would be far more reluctant to gift a bottle of wine to someone if it had images of a dead persons fucked up liver splashed all over the front with 'DRINKING KILLS' or whatever. Be a bit of a mood kill on a romantic evening meal at a restaurant too.

I don't think it's just "some" people that have a problematic relationship with booze. As others have said, it's played down how much it feeds into health issues, illness and death. Meanwhile the harms of many illegal drugs are exaggerated and their benefits played down.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

DP

 

[ouirdeaux]

I would be in favour of two simple measures that I believe would be helpful. One is quite easy to implement in law. The second isn't. Neither is likely to happen.

1) ETHANOL to be printed in readable letters on labels.

2) People should stop talking about drugs and alcohol. Alcohol is a drug. If you're talking about alcohol, call it one. People have been taking mood-altering substances since they worked out how to, and that isn't likely to change. Unfortunately, this can sometimes have detrimental consequences for the invidual and society. Calling all these substances 'drugs' and focusing on their effects, along with what to do when consumption becomes a direct or indirect problem, would be better than the mess we're in.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Alcohol is an addictive substance, and I don't think the aesthetic of the bottle should be more important than making that clear to people.

Is it though? I am far from convinced that alcoholics are made, much more convinced that they are born.

When we were in Berlin, a 100 unit week was a light week. Yet, we came back to the UK, drank our duty free then became very occasional drinkers, due to the cost. The day we left Germany a liter bottle of vodka was DM4.15, £1.00. You couldn't get a single measure of vodka in a UK pub for that money.

I'm not a 'banner' by nature, so even though I drink very little now, I would rather see more information on the bottles than banning alcohol.

The minimum unit pricing in Scotland has had little effect on problem drinking, as anyone with more than two brain cells could have foreseen. Addicts will get their fix, whether it be by switching tipple, or adding something such as street benzos to enhance the effect. I spoke to my MSP re the failure of unit pricing, she said it will be reviewed this year. All it did really was enhance the profits of the alcohol sellers.

 

[ouirdeaux]

I am far from convinced that alcoholics are made, much more convinced that they are born.

I've known problem drinkers who were physically addicted to booze, to the extent that they required medication and ideally supervision when detoxing to avoid going into convulsions. I've also known problem drinkers who were suddenly deprived of alcohol for whatever reason and didn't suffer these effects, although they were pretty pissed off. From this I rather unscientifically conclude that some people become physically dependent on alcohol while others don't, but as members of the latter group can damage their health through excessive consumption as much as those of the former, the distinction can be academic (although it might have some value in determining the most effective treatment).

 

[Sasaferrato]

I would be in favour of two simple measures that I believe would be helpful. One is quite easy to implement in law. The second isn't. Neither is likely to happen.

1) ETHANOL to be printed in readable letters on labels.

2) People should stop talking about drugs and alcohol. Alcohol is a drug. If you're talking about alcohol, call it one. People have been taking mood-altering substances since they worked out how to, and that isn't likely to change. Unfortunately, this can sometimes have detrimental consequences for the invidual and society. Calling all these substances 'drugs' and focusing on their effects, along with what to do when consumption becomes a direct or indirect problem, would be better than the mess we're in.

The argument given by governments of all stripes re legalising and regulating drugs is that they would alienate their voters, especially the older ones by doing so.

In the microcosm of our square, there are four males over 65, and all four of us smoke grass. Sub 65, five males, four of whom smoke grass. (The fifth is allergic, otherwise he would. )

It's time we had a grown up conversation about drugs. They are not going away, and the present system is about the worst you could have.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Is it though? I am far from convinced that alcoholics are made, much more convinced that they are born.

That doesn't make sense. So you think a person is born an alcoholic? What if they are born in a dry country and never taste an alcoholic drink in their life?