Easter, Jesus....
- Thread starter biggus dickus
- Start date
This is just a thought I just had (I'm sure I read it somewhere though) but was the male element (Sky man and his boy) important in choosing Christianity perhaps?
I've always had a pet theory that the Roman and Greek empires used men instead of women as Gods because it coincided with the beginning of standing armies whereas the more agricultural societies before them preferred Earth Mother gods
I've always had a pet theory that the Roman and Greek empires used men instead of women as Gods because it coincided with the beginning of standing armies whereas the more agricultural societies before them preferred Earth Mother gods
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
But what about all the female greek and roman goddesses: Artemis, Diana, Aphrodite, Venus, Athena, Hera, etc etc?
I'm sure that I remember reading that Aphrodite is a mutation of Asherte (sp.) who was the creator in the religions that the Greek ones derived from and was relegated from the main God into Zeus's daughter. I know there were a lot of Goddesses in their religions, but the world was all made and run by male gods in their religion. I think, I'm hoping someone who has studied it turns up because this is based on reading things like Wikipedia years ago
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I think the mother of everything in Greek mythology is Gaia - a female.
I just looked at wiki and it said that the gods were descended from Gaia and Uranus. 'Uranus' lol
But I think in the story the world in their present time was all made by Kronos and Zeus and Gaia was not relevant in a way
But I think in the story the world in their present time was all made by Kronos and Zeus and Gaia was not relevant in a way
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I make no claim to being a Greek scholar.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
I'm a bit out of my depth, but I think a contrast may have been drawn between Greek/Roman paganism and earlier mediterranean cultures and civilisations like the Minoans which may have placed more emphasis on goddess cults. But by focusing on Greek and Roman paganism I think you are missing the bigger picture. There is a tension between the traditional mythology and a monotheistic tendency in these civilizations which can be traced back a few centuries before Jesus' time. Plato is an obvious example.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
Like I said I am no expert - hence the wikipedia reference - but I think the Minoan Goddess culture thing is fairly well documented:
wikipedia
Religion
Main article: Minoan religion
"Snake Goddess" or a priestess performing a ritual.
The Minoans seem to have worshipped primarily goddesses, which has sometimes been described as a "matriarchal religion".[37] Although there is some evidence of male gods, depictions of Minoan goddesses vastly outnumber depictions of anything that could be considered a Minoan god. While some of these depictions of women are speculated to be images of worshippers and priestesses officiating at religious ceremonies, as opposed to the deity herself, there still seem to be several goddesses including a Mother Goddess of fertility, a Mistress of the Animals, a protectress of cities, the household, the harvest, and the underworld, and more. Some[38] have argued that these are all aspects of a single Great Goddess. They are often represented by serpents, birds, poppies, and a somewhat vague shape of an animal upon the head.
wikipedia
ancient page 3
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
The koran claims that jesus' death on the cross was faked.
Entirely plausible if you think about it - give him a soporific to make him appear dead (i.e the sponge he drinks from just before he 'dies'), bribe the sentries not to break his legs (a way of killing off crucifixtion victims quickly - they could take days to die otherwise) and whisk him off to spend a few days recovering.
He then pops up, says hi to his nearest and dearest and fucks off pretty sharpish (some legends have him going to the south of france, some east to perisa) before the authorities catch up with him.
I've always felt that Jesus post reserrection is a massive anti-climax - after pulling a stunt like that you'd think he be riding into jerusalem like the all conquering hero - instead he keeps it all very low key.
apart from that - I've never really seen the point of his death and resurection - supposedly he dies as a way of enabling god to forgive us our sins - but why is that neccessary? And why is the resurecction a necesarry pre-cursor for life after death? And its a post-hoc explanation cos Im pretty sure Jesus doesn't put it in those terms in the gospels.
Something which is supposedly central to christian belief looks more and more like a gimmick, a publicity stunt, when you think about it. It would only make sense if he used it as a spectacular springboard to become the leader the jewish people and inspire a huge devoted army of followers (after all that is what the messiah is actually supposed to do) - but he does nothing of the sort.
Without the whole death and resurecction, you would still have the teachings of jesus and you could still have forgiveness and life after death and the belief in jesus's divinity.
Entirely plausible if you think about it - give him a soporific to make him appear dead (i.e the sponge he drinks from just before he 'dies'), bribe the sentries not to break his legs (a way of killing off crucifixtion victims quickly - they could take days to die otherwise) and whisk him off to spend a few days recovering.
He then pops up, says hi to his nearest and dearest and fucks off pretty sharpish (some legends have him going to the south of france, some east to perisa) before the authorities catch up with him.
I've always felt that Jesus post reserrection is a massive anti-climax - after pulling a stunt like that you'd think he be riding into jerusalem like the all conquering hero - instead he keeps it all very low key.
apart from that - I've never really seen the point of his death and resurection - supposedly he dies as a way of enabling god to forgive us our sins - but why is that neccessary? And why is the resurecction a necesarry pre-cursor for life after death? And its a post-hoc explanation cos Im pretty sure Jesus doesn't put it in those terms in the gospels.
Something which is supposedly central to christian belief looks more and more like a gimmick, a publicity stunt, when you think about it. It would only make sense if he used it as a spectacular springboard to become the leader the jewish people and inspire a huge devoted army of followers (after all that is what the messiah is actually supposed to do) - but he does nothing of the sort.
Without the whole death and resurecction, you would still have the teachings of jesus and you could still have forgiveness and life after death and the belief in jesus's divinity.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
It actually says that the very basis of Christianity is in fact a lie?
That's pretty strong stuff.
The idea that Jesus actually was God is fundamentally against the Muslim and Jewish idea of God
I thought that the fact that Jesus was so low key at the end was a fundamental part of the story. God was showing us that our sins made him suffer as well as us
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I just didn't realize it went so far as to say that the crucifixion was faked. It's one thing to say that people were mistaken about what happened; it's another to say that dishonest charlatans were trying to put one over on people.
I didn't know that either.
smmudge
i know the smudge is true
The crucial point of the resurrection in Christianity is that it goes against every bit of reason we have about about life and death, and therefore we need faith to believe it (and this faith is the same as the faith in God's existence). We live, then we die, and once we're dead we're dead and that's it, game over. Then Jesus came along as the son of god and died, then apparently came back to life. That goes against all reason as we know it, and that's why we need faith to believe in the story - more specifically, the faith that God exists and made this happen. That is the point of Jesus's resurrection which is a crucial part of Christianity, i.e. faith that goes against reason.
Actually Jesus is a prophet of the Islamic faith (just that Muhammed was the last prophet) so I would be interested to see where you read that the Koran claims that Jesus's death was faked, because claiming Jesus was a fake challenges Islam as a religion too.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
The problem with the crucifixion for muslims would probably be the resurrection. He could be a prophet who simply died on the cross. If he came back to life, then that elevates him to god status.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
But do you need the resurection to believe in life after death? Plenty of other religions have an afterlife or reincarnation without it. And I would say that the resurection of lazarus is a more impressive miracle - plenty of witnesses - in fact a clear bit of showboating! (although equally plausibly faked).
And again I still have the problem of the point of Jesus' death - its supposed to be this supreme act of sacrifice on our behalf - but I have never seen why it's necessary. Even as a kid in religious instruction classes I never really got my head around it. Repeated mantras about 'taking away the sins of the world' dont really hold up - (according to theology) we still have sin and we still physically die - just like before jesus. We don't pop back up again in the physical world like he supposedly did. And the people who died before jesus - do they not have an afterlife? Are their sins not forgiven? Why does he have to die?
And I'm not sure how much justification there is for the theology around the death and resureccion (or indeed christs' divinity) in the gospels themselves - much of it comes from St Paul. Some of the early strands of christianity had divergent views on christs divinity - some seeing him as a prophet rather than a god - and as such were branded hertetical by rome in later centruries.
http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/heresies.stm
From what I remember (and bear in mind that this is from reading an English translation more than a few years ago), it states in the Koran that Jesus (speaking for himself) never claimed to be the son of God, and hid himself in the wall to escape death (during the crucifixion).
Jesus is accepted as one of many prophets, with many valid things to say and setting an important example, but not as the son of God. That's how it doesn't challenge Islam.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
If you think so.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I don't play any instruments, though, and I'm a crap singer.
The band probably wouldn't go over very well in Nashville, either.
Well I've neither the free time nor energy for it.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I wish I'd done it, though. Being able to make music is a very good thing.
You think so?
*even further derail alert* IME it's like sex - when it's good it's mindblowing. But a lot of the time it's not. The more people who are involved the more problematic it becomes. And when it's bad you wonder why you bothered with it at all. As for the amount of bitching and nitpicking which can go on before, during, and after rehearsals (I mean to the extent that it caused enough tension to negate the effect of all the vocal warm up exercises) - well you just had to be there.
