Was jesus born on the 25 december

[jesuscrept]

I've got a copy of the new testament that has the words of jesus done IN RED.

Case closed.

What?

 

[Stigmata]

It just occurred to me that catholic reliance on saints is sublimated ancestor worship the same way as mary worship is mother goddess stuff. Must wind a catholic up with that one next time I see one.

idk, a lot of saints were notably celibate so they're not anyone's biological ancestors. In a more general sense I suppose people revered local heroes from times past, eg St Ethelfryth and Swithun in Winchester.

 

[danny la rouge]

not that I'm hugely bothered either way, it's just that while I don't particularly go for all the son of god malarky, I do generally tend towards the idea that there's a reasonable degree of truth about a lot of it - ie there was a preacher called Jesus who probably was the son of Mary and Joseph, who was a proper thorn in the side of the establishment and ended up being crucified, and many of the tales told about stuff he did and said would have been relatively accurate at a base level, but then seriously exagerated to beef up the claim for him being the son of god.

One point that really does intrigue me is whether Jesus actually described himself as being the son of god, or whether that bit was added in later by his disciples / later scripture writers.

I think that is an interesting point. It seems that he most often referred to himself as Son of Man (except in John's Gospel). This phrase appears in Daniel, but seems here to be a tautology for "man". (Daniel 7 13-14. "I saw one like a son of man", often translated into English just as "I saw one like a man", as the New English Bible does).

The phrase does seem to have been used as a Hebrew circumlocution for "man". It could just be that when Jesus said it he was saying "me". Much as some people say "muggins here".
It is of course the view of many later Christian theologians that the phrase in Daniel is part of the concept of Messiah. However, much modern work suggests that this was another back formation, appealing to Daniel for Jesus' Messiahship.

It seems quite clear from Mark 2 27-28 that Jesus uses the term just to mean "mankind". "The Sabbath was made for the sake of man and not man for the Sabbath: therefore the Son of Man is sovereign even over the Sabbath". If he meant himself in the latter part, then that undoes what he said in the first. He's obviously just saying "Man".

It does seem to have been a phrase he was wont to use though, and he is reported saying it scores of times in the NT, and in many of these the meaning "man" or "me" is a perfectly reasonable translation. Where it is more ambiguous is in Mark 14 61-62, when the High Priest questions him.

Again the High Priest questioned him: "Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed On?" Jesus said, "I am; and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God and coming with the clouds of heaven".​

Are these the authentic words of Jesus, or just the way the Gospel wanted to see him? It seems strange that after being so careful not to make any claims about himself he now blows it with that line. Maybe the words are included to give him a moment of glory in the face of his accusers, and to give the narrative a solid cause for his condemnation.

You can compare Mowinckle's He That Cometh (1959) with Vermes' Jesus the Few (1976). Both make interesting reads, but the latter is my favourite. It holds that Jesus was not making Messianic claims for himself.

 

[danny la rouge]

From Wiki:
"Nazareth is not mentioned in pre-Christian texts............

James Strange, an American archaeologist, notes: “Nazareth is not mentioned in ancient Jewish sources earlier than the third century AD."

Yes, I'm aware that some people say Nazareth was not occupied at the time of Jesus. But they need it to have been in existence prior to Jesus' birth (we know it did from the archaeological record), to have been unoccupied at the time of his birth, then reoccupied around 200AD. Those people hold that "Jesus the Nazarene" doesn't mean "of Nazareth", but has one of a couple of other derivations, both linked to Messianic beliefs. That is all entirely possible, and I don't dismiss it out of hand. I just don't personally think it likely on balance. But then I am not an Aramaic linguist. Furthermore, a town doesn't need to have mentions of it in the surviving records for it to have existed at that point.

 

[Lock&Light]

Everyone knows how badly remembered actual quotes are even after only a few minutes at times. So how much accuracy can we expect when Jesus' words, as quoted in the Gospels, were only written down many decades later?

 

[goldenecitrone]

was the name Jesus about brfore JESUS

Yeshua was as common as Dave is today. Everyone knew a Yeshua.

 

[JimW]

Have we had Jospehus yet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

 

[danny la rouge]

Everyone knows how badly remembered actual quotes are even after only a few minutes at times. So how much accuracy can we expect when Jesus' words, as quoted in the Gospels, were only written down many decades later?

Accuracy? I've not noticed anyone claiming accuracy for the Gospels.

 

[danny la rouge]

Have we had Jospehus yet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Not specifically, I don't think, but an allusion was made early on.

 

[Lock&Light]

Accuracy? I've not noticed anyone claiming accuracy for the Gospels.

Fundamentalists certainly do, but, of course, I think they suffer from a peculiar madness.

 

[danny la rouge]

Fundamentalists certainly do, but, of course, I think they suffer from a peculiar madness.

I meant on this thread. I wondered if you thought you were responding to anyone on the thread.

 

[DotCommunist]

idk, a lot of saints were notably celibate so they're not anyone's biological ancestors. In a more general sense I suppose people revered local heroes from times past, eg St Ethelfryth and Swithun in Winchester.

Genius loci then? Perhaps.

I remember reading about the tridentine counter-reformation and the new catholic outreachers encountering all sorts of heterodoxy that had sprung up amongst people who had seen no direct contact with Rome for generations, where local deities from pre-conversion times were as saints and so on

 

[Santino]

Genius loci then? Perhaps.

I remember reading about the tridentine counter-reformation and the new catholic outreachers encountering all sorts of heterodoxy that had sprung up amongst people who had seen no direct contact with Rome for generations, where local deities from pre-conversion times were as saints and so on

Like all those saints whose names are suspiciously similar to Roman and Greek gods.

 

[ViolentPanda]

idk, a lot of saints were notably celibate so they're not anyone's biological ancestors. In a more general sense I suppose people revered local heroes from times past, eg St Ethelfryth and Swithun in Winchester.

I think that's why Dotty said "sublimated".

Of course, there's often the over-writing effect to consider w/r/t saint's places (wells, springs etc), where original pagan attributions have been partially (but often not completely) over-written with Christian mythology, or where pagan deities have been appropriated wholesale for/by Christianity (Brigid/St. Bride being an easy example).

 

[danny la rouge]

I think that's why Dotty said "sublimated".

And it serves him right that everyone's eyes glazed over when he did...

 

[twentythreedom]

I am an ordained minister (seriously, I am) and I tell you his name is JEEBUS ffs.

Twats

 

[danny la rouge]

Internet ordination?

His name was Jeshua ben Yosef.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And it serves him right that everyone's eyes glazed over when he did...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Internet ordination?

His name was Jeshua ben Yosef.

Or Jeshua ben Yahweh if you believe his mum, the dutty girl!

 

[danny la rouge]

What's great is not only that she got away with that story, but that so many people believed her.

 

[twentythreedom]

Internet ordination?

His name was Jeshua "Jeebus" ben Yosef.

Corrected for ya. Bless you.

 

[phildwyer]

Genius loci then? Perhaps.

I remember reading about the tridentine counter-reformation and the new catholic outreachers encountering all sorts of heterodoxy that had sprung up amongst people who had seen no direct contact with Rome for generations, where local deities from pre-conversion times were as saints and so on

Still happens throughout the third world.

 

[Deareg]

What evidence is there, then?

Didn't archaeologists discover an ancient birth certificate?