Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[squirrelp]

Craig Murray has gone back to his keyboard

here is his closing paragraph

There could be no evidence because in reality these were leaks, not hacks. The report is, frankly, a pile of complete and utter dross. To base grave accusations of election hacking on this report is ludicrous. Obama has been a severe disappointment to all progressive thinkers in virtually every possible way. He now goes out of power with absolutely no grace and in a storm of delusion and deceit. His purpose is apparently to weaken Trump politically, but to achieve that at the expense of heightening tensions with Russia to Cold War levels, is shameful. The very pettiness of Obama’s tongue out to Putin – minor sanctions and expelling some diplomatic families – itself shows that Obama is lying about the pretext. If he really believed that Russia had “hacked the election”, surely that would require a much less feeble response. By refusing to retaliate, Russia has shown the kind of polish that eludes Obama as he takes his empty charisma and presentational skills into a no doubt lucrative future in the private sector.

Exit Obama in a Cloud of Disillusion, Delusion and Deceit - Craig Murray

 

[Miss Caphat]

I'm sorry but I'm still at a loss as to how someone like me, who happens to be working class and white, fits into this 'identity' constructed by people not of my class and most likely hostile to it whatever the colour of a proletarian's skin, but in my case this group called 'white working class.' What is essential to this identity that I don't recognise as organic in any sense but I must be a part of? Because someone else, someone better, said so.

This is you, your culture, everything you can be.

Nope.

I wasn't aware of the fact that people were responsible for assigning themselves to particular demographics, generally speaking.

The reason what CRI is talking about is completely relevant is because of the extreme segregation of minority groups in the US within similar income brackets and education levels etc. I find it really insane that people here are (seemingly) denying that factor or declaring it meaningless. If that is what is being said.

 

[redsquirrel]

I find it really insane that people here are (seemingly) denying that factor or declaring it meaningless. If that is what is being said.

It isn't, but don't let that stop you making the claim.

No one on this thread (not even the resident racist) has declared that peoples views about race weren't a factor. Not one person has said that people's views about gender wasn't a factor.

 

[Yossarian]

Craig Murray has gone back to his keyboard

The blog is now essentially closing down for the festive period. I am travelling off to where I shall lie shipwrecked and comatose, drinking fresh mango juice. Barring imminent nuclear war, I am unlikely to post again before the New Year.

"Craig, we're going swimming, why don't you put down your fucking laptop and get out of the room for a change? Are you still hung over from last night? That couple from Oregon did not appreciate being called mass murderers for paying taxes to the Obama administration. Fine, just stay there, we'll see you later on."

I had promised myself and my family that on this holiday I would do nothing but relax. However events have overtaken my good intentions. I find myself in the unusual position of having twice been in a position to know directly that governments were lying in globe-shaking events.

 

[Miss Caphat]

It isn't, but don't let that stop you making the claim.

No one on this thread (not even the resident racist) has declared that peoples views about race weren't a factor. Not one person has said that people's views about gender wasn't a factor.

Oh, so it's another stupid circular argument then?

 

[seventh bullet]

I wasn't aware of the fact that people were responsible for assigning themselves to particular demographics, generally speaking.

The reason what CRI is talking about is completely relevant is because of the extreme segregation of minority groups in the US within similar income brackets and education levels etc. I find it really insane that people here are (seemingly) denying that factor or declaring it meaningless. If that is what is being said.

Does the rejection of an essentialised and racialised identity assigned from above, and instead the preference for a class analysis, necessarily mean that racism and sexism are not of the utmost importance in looking at how and why our societies are so unequal and unjust?

 

[redsquirrel]

Oh, so it's another stupid circular argument then?

I've no idea what you mean by that it doesn't relate to seventh bullet's point in any way I understand. Seventh bullet's argument is neither circular nor stupid, it exposes the dreadful politics behind CRI's 'class is an identity' position.

Your claim that posters on this thread have denied that race wasn't a factor is simply false. It was false the first time it was claimed and it's still false the 100th time.

Posted 70 odd pages ago and it's still going on

I've never heard anyone say anything even approaching that nonsense in 25 years plus. I've lost count of the number of tendentious suggestions or smears by people opposed to class based politics claiming they have or its the common understanding of those who do have class based politics. I've seen the latter more times on here in the last week alone than I have ever the former on here or elsewhere. I've also seen the inverted parody of the mocked up picture on here and elsewhere many times this week: it's only race or, for those to scared to say openly what they mean, culture.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Does the rejection of an essentialised and racialised identity assigned from above, and instead the preference for a class analysis, necessarily mean that racism and sexism are not of the utmost importance in looking at how and why our societies are so unequal and unjust?

Maybe it's better to ask the socialists this question.

 

[Casually Red]

uh, because both are true. (ok, it wasn't entirely irrelevant, and frankly I think she should have been disqualified for complete ineptitude along with all of her staff and whoever failed at advising her) but also, it was entirely blown out of proportion in relation to Clinton considering that this is a widespread problem in US government. The security is shockingly bad.

which leads to the fact that it does actually seem that a foreign policy crisis threatened the security of our political system. the two things are part of the same problem.

The security wasn't bad , it was perfectly sensible. She knowingly didn't follow the simple rules that were laid down for her and thereby endangered US national security . It's also clear her staff were terrified of contradicting her . And the electorate disqualified her and her staff after all this became evident .

Some people ...cheifly the war hawks..have a problem with the electorates decision and are seeking to delegitimise it , without offering up any real proof any foreign skulduggery actually occurred .

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And the electorate disqualified her and her staff after all this became evident . .

... aside from the fact that she received 3 million more votes than her opponent.

 

[Casually Red]

... aside from the fact that she received 3 million more votes than her opponent.

She and her husband were in power for 8 years. She was in BOs administration for another load of years . Time to change the goalposts was back then , not now . She lost fair and square .

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

She lost - because of the arcane rules of the Electoral College. But a majority of Americans voted for her. To say she was disqualified by the electorate, is flat out incorrect.

 

[Casually Red]

She lost the election . Big time . Get used to it .

 

[Casually Red]

The Clintonites really are going berserk . Anyone doubting that should just google " Trump treason " . Maniacs . It's like the 1950s . Definitely seems orchestrated too .

 

[J Ed]

Maybe it's better to ask the socialists this question.

Any luck yet finding these class-exclusive socialists you keep referring to? Either on this thread or in the wider world?

 

[squirrelp]

The Clintonites really are going berserk . Anyone doubting that should just google " Trump treason " . Maniacs . It's like the 1950s . Definitely seems orchestrated too .

Amazing

So welcoming Putin's decision NOT to expel US diplomats is... treason.

How bonkers is this?

 

[Casually Red]

Amazing

So welcoming Putin's decision NOT to expel US diplomats is... treason.

How bonkers is this?

That bonkers

 

[CRI]

It doesn't seem worthwhile even to compare the "white working class" in the US to that in the UK, there are some superficial similarities in the plight of workers in Ohio, Indiana, etc. to that of workers in many parts of England, but there's such a big difference even state-to-state in the US that the term is almost meaningless. One of the most shocking statistics I saw during election coverage was that only 1.9% of workers in North Carolina belong to unions.

You're right - it doesn't translate. Most people describe themselves as "middle class," including those who by any UK measures would definitely be seen as "working class." People genuinely believe social mobility is possible with hard graft. A by product of that is absolute disdain for poor people. Even with people losing jobs and homes during the recession, I think there was still heavy cultivation of "poor but honest" and "poor but dishonest" idea to keep the divisions alive. But, they don't call it class division.

For anyone with a genuine interest, I discovered Patricia Williams' Reith Lectures of 1997 on are available online. I remember finding them quite thought-provoking then. In one, she talks about how race functions as a social divider in many ways like class does in the UK. Link to podcasts here and transcripts here. I relistened to a couple. Depressing to think 20 years down the line little has changed, and in many ways, things have gone backwards.

 

[CRI]

Wanker

The fact that you believe the socialists, communists and anarchists that have always been at the forefront of the fight against fascism (in many cases at the expense of their lives) are the same as those they were fighting against just shows how stupid you are and how anybody with any radical politics should spit in your face.

Absolutely, they have been, which makes it all the more distressing and depressing that many who profess to be socialists now have become apologists for or even open supporters of rising right wing authoritarianism. They're the ones spitting on the graves of forefathers and foremothers who fought fascism.

 

[TomUS]

She lost the election . Big time . Get used to it .

She didn't lose big time. She barely lost. The elec col vote was very close and she won the pop vote. The voters did not reject her. They rejected him.

 

[CRI]

Amazing

So welcoming Putin's decision NOT to expel US diplomats is... treason.

How bonkers is this?

Uh, no.

The issue is that the incoming US president has publicly praised the actions and smarts of the leader of a country currently under investigation for activities that may have undermined the sovereignty of the US.

It's a public slap in the face of the serving president and the legislators who will carry out the investigation (if they are allowed.) It also signals his allegiance to the leadership of a foreign country over that of his own.

Takes some mental gymnastics to look at that pictures and say, "Problem? What problem?"

 

[squirrelp]

Uh, no.

The issue is that the incoming US president has publicly praised the actions and smarts of the leader of a country currently under investigation for activities that may have undermined the sovereignty of the US.

It's a public slap in the face of the serving president and the legislators who will carry out the investigation (if they are allowed.) It also signals his allegiance to the leadership of a foreign country over that of his own.

Takes some mental gymnastics to look at that pictures and say, "Problem? What problem?"

yeah I get it. He's showing up the boss.

Well good for him. If anyone is guilty of treason it should be Obama who seems to be doing his best to rustle up a nuclear war before he goes.

It's a bit worse than nicking some pens from the stationery cupboard.

 

[J Ed]

Socialism = very bad and racist probably (although we won't explain why)

Nativist sabre rattling and Russophobia = woke

 

[maomao]

Absolutely, they have been, which makes it all the more distressing and depressing that many who profess to be socialists now have become apologists for or even open supporters of rising right wing authoritarianism. They're the ones spitting on the graves of forefathers and foremothers who fought fascism.

Could you link to or give examples of this Trump apologising please. Is it on this thread or elsewhere?

 

[emanymton]

She lost - because of the arcane rules of the Electoral College. But a majority of Americans voted for her. To say she was disqualified by the electorate, is flat out incorrect.

The election was fought on the electoral college basis, the fact that Clinton got more votes does not automatically mean she would have got more if the election was decided by popular vote. The electoral college system affects how the candidates campaign and if affects how people vote. We simply have no way of knowing how it would have gone if decided by popular vote. It could have gone the other way, she could have won by more than 3 million. There is no way to know.

 

[CRI]

Could you link to or give examples of this Trump apologising please. Is it on this thread or elsewhere?

I can't think of any examples of Trump apologising, for anything. But that wasn't what I said, and you know it.

What I said was, "many who profess to be socialists now have become apologists for or even open supporters of rising right wing authoritarianism." As far as I'm aware, Trump has never professed to be a socialist.

For avoidance of doubt, here are some definitions from the Oxford (online) Living Dictionary.

apologize (also apologise) VERB

Express regret for something that one has done wrong.

‘I must apologize for disturbing you like this’
‘we apologize to him for our error’

apologist NOUN

A person who offers an argument in defence of something controversial:

‘an enthusiastic apologist for fascism in the 1920s’

---------

The example of usage under the term apologist is quite apt, because I'm talking about the people who profess to be socialist, but seems to think the Putin government is a benign or even a positive influence on the world.

They overlook widespread human rights abuses against Russian citizens, including imprisonment and even murder of journalists, artists, etc. for speaking against them (including from lands under occupation by Russia).

They seem oblivious to the increasing poverty and serious public health problems, alcoholism and an HIV/AIDS epidemic that's being largely ignored by the government and made worse by failing, corrupt infrastructure.

They clearly aren't bothered by anti-LGBT legislation and the persecution of LGBT folks in Russia.

Russian forces deliberate targeting of hospitals and civilian targets in Syria, in support of a Syrian government already cited for gross human rights abuses of its own people doesn't seem to bother their consciences.

It's no shakes to them that Russia has a "managed democracy" which is just a cover for autocracy with a highly centralised power structure. And no big deal that at the centre of that power is Putin, who has been in charge interchangeably as premier or president for 17 years, amassing considerable personal wealth from his extremely privileged position.

They use arguments and even language that's almost identical to that used by far right/white supremacist/self-styled alt-right activists in their condemnation of Obama and Hilary Clinton. They also offer far more praise on Putin and Trump than you might expect, given that the policies of both seem the antithesis of socialist.

Maybe they missed the memo and think Russia is a fantastic example of their dream workers' paradise and just want to help "spread the love."

 

[CRI]

yeah I get it. He's showing up the boss.

Well good for him. If anyone is guilty of treason it should be Obama who seems to be doing his best to rustle up a nuclear war before he goes.

It's a bit worse than nicking some pens from the stationery cupboard.

Russia and the USA have done the tit for tat expulsion of diplomats for decades. Somehow though, this time, the President is doing it because he wants to start a nuclear war? What a load of pish.

To be fair, I've seen quite a few folks make that claim, and saying we should be thankful that Trump's good relations with Putin will avoid this otherwise seemingly inevitable war.

It's coming from those folk who like to call themselves Alt-Right these days.

Must be nice and cosy with y'all in that bed.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Who are the 'many' apologists, CRI? Can you name them please?

 

[CRI]

The election was fought on the electoral college basis, the fact that Clinton got more votes does not automatically mean she would have got more if the election was decided by popular vote. The electoral college system affects how the candidates campaign and if affects how people vote. We simply have no way of knowing how it would have gone if decided by popular vote. It could have gone the other way, she could have won by more than 3 million. There is no way to know.

This is true, but history already seems to be being re-written, claiming that Trump pretty well wiped the floor with Clinton, when that just ain't so.

 

[CRI]

Who are the 'many' apologists, CRI? Can you name them please?

Look around ya pal, there's plenty to be seen. You're welcome!