Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[maomao]

This is a message board. Members can post what they like where they like so long as it's within site rules. I post articles I find interesting. I post my views and mostly try to give context for those views. If folks want to engage with my posts, fine. If not, also fine. No one makes anyone read, much less agree with anything I post. If someone gets so upset they feel inclined to launch into a personal diatribe, for fucksake, use the ignore button and chill.

Sure, I find it weird, and mildly amusing that when I post views/observations that come from my experience growing up in rural, working class, Midwest America, that some here consistently insist I don't know what I'm talking about. Folk with North American connections, not so much, even if they disagree with my views generally. No big deal in the grand scheme of things though.

We must be reading different threads . I've been reading the one where you accuse people of being racist and then put them on ignore so you don't have to explain yourself and accuse everyone else of not understanding anything because they're not from the US.

 

[CRI]

You'll have to excuse me. I must put my flat cap on and go out to buy some dripping to put on my bread.

Read that as "cat flap."

 

[CRI]

We must be reading different threads . I've been reading the one where you accuse people of being racist and then put them on ignore so you don't have to explain yourself and accuse everyone else of not understanding anything because they're not from the US.

Uh no. I've described views, behaviours, etc. that imo perpetuate racism, misogyny, other forms of bigotry, yes. If the shoe (or hat) fits, that's not my problem.

You won't find posts where I say, "Hey you, CrustyButt1066, you're a fucking racist pig," or anything even close to that.

I put members on ignore when I get fed up with their needling and/or I can't see any benefit in engaging with them. There's no rule that says I can only ignore people when you say I can, is there?

 

[maomao]

I put members on ignore when I get fed up with their needling and/or I can't see any benefit in engaging with them. There's no rule that says I can only ignore people when you say I can, is there?

There's a pretty basic rule, not of bulletin boards but of human interaction, that if you throw around wild accusations and refuse to back them up, insult people's intelligence and talk a lot of crap that they're going to give you shit for it, yes.

 

[Yossarian]

Is it being a snob to point out that contrary to CRI's repeated assertions on this thread that he knows better than almost everyone else, simply on the basis that he was brought up in the US, he appears to have no genuine analysis of or longterm engagement with the issues he's reducing to simplistic kneejerk homilies, while he dismisses the contribution that others with an established history of grappling with complex issues both here and in the wider world as racists and misogynists because they don't swallow his trite nonsense whole, and that his major contribution to this forum, in contrast is posting thousands upon thousands of pictures of cats?

Well yeah, it is - if you don't like somebody's opinion, you shouldn't rebut it by using their posting history against them - would you feel the need to tell somebody else that they should shut up because the bulk of their posts are about football/cooking/clothes/word association, etc.?

This is a world politics forum, the bigger the range of people posting here, the better - if people feel that engaging with what might be the only Upper Midwesterner on their boards is getting in the way of other discussion, they might be better off starting a more finely targeted thread instead of this 400-page monster.

 

[Tankus]

"" Russia won’t expel any Americans in retaliation to US moves""

makes obama look a bit of a tool ...dunnit ?

seen elsewhere " when the opposition goes low , time to go high ...."

 

[J Ed]

There's a pretty basic rule, not of bulletin boards but of human interaction, that if you throw around wild accusations and refuse to back them up, insult people's intelligence and talk a lot of crap that they're going to give you shit for it, yes.

Though it is interesting that people who behave this way also have this tendency to block out what little interaction they do have with opposing viewpoints. Anyone would think there might be some sort of cause and effect thing going on.

 

[Miss Caphat]

Does anyone else get the strong impression that CRI doesn't actually believe in or think anything much at all? All that bluster in defence of.. nothing much other than their right to a particular form of self expression.

Nope.
I get the strong impression that a bunch of you don't want to hear what someone else is saying because it doesn't fit your worldview, and that this is getting very boring to watch.

Can we get back to Trump please? It's not about you guys. Thanks

 

[J Ed]

Nope.
I get the strong impression that a bunch of you don't want to hear what someone else is saying because it doesn't fit your worldview, and that this is getting very boring to watch.

Can we get back to Trump please? It's not about you guys. Thanks

OK, can you tell me what CRI actually believes in, for example what policy differences they have with Bernie Sanders as opposed to Hillary Clinton?

 

[Miss Caphat]

OK, can you tell me what CRI actually believes in, for example what policy differences they have with Bernie Sanders as opposed to Hillary Clinton?

Is that what this thread is about?
No?
Oh ok, let's move on then. Thanks

 

[Casually Red]

"" Russia won’t expel any Americans in retaliation to US moves""

makes obama look a bit of a tool ...dunnit ?

seen elsewhere " when the opposition goes low , time to go high ...."

I was going to say its a shrewd move but it actually isn't . It's basic common sense in the face of petulant idiocy . Obama and his mates are blatantly trying to sow chaos just for the lulz in the final few weeks . Idiots . It's a no brainier not to follow suit .

 

[Miss Caphat]

well, why would they expel Americans though? they are the ones being accused of interfering with an election, and I haven't heard any accusations from the Russians, so...

 

[Casually Red]

well, why would they expel Americans though? they are the ones being accused of interfering with an election, and I haven't heard any accusations from the Russians, so...

Well they firmly deny any involvement in interfering . And there's no proof put forward that they did . So retaliatory measures would normally be in order after a move like this .
Not retaliating immediately permits Trump to have the opportunity to smooth this over in a few weeks with a lot less hassle , as well as showing Obamas behaviour up as highly unprofessional. To do this in the final few weeks of a presidency is just ridiculous . If there was an issue to persue it should have been left to Trumps watch to sort it out .

 

[Bernie Gunther]

well, why would they expel Americans though? they are the ones being accused of interfering with an election, and I haven't heard any accusations from the Russians, so...

The Russians have been accusing the US of screwing about in their sphere of influence using 'hacking' and other measures for some years now.

A couple of quick links from that general vicinity, I'll dig out some better stuff when I have more time if anyone is interested.

Putin's Prepared Remarks at 43rd Munich Conference on Security Policy

https://csis-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/...on/140529_Russia_Color_Revolution_Summary.pdf

 

[Miss Caphat]

Well they firmly deny any involvement in interfering . And there's no proof put forward that they did . So retaliatory measures would normally be in order after a move like this .
Not retaliating immediately permits Trump to have the opportunity to smooth this over in a few weeks with a lot less hassle , as well as showing Obamas behaviour up as highly unprofessional. To do this in the final few weeks of a presidency is just ridiculous . If there was an issue to persue it should have been left to Trumps watch to sort it out .

haha.

ok, and I do see what you're saying, but wasn't Obama also dealing with pressure to "do something" about the problem?

 

[Casually Red]

haha.

ok, and I do see what you're saying, but wasn't Obama also dealing with pressure to "do something" about the problem?

First and foremost if there was a problem he should have proven it existed in the first place . He's demonstrably failed in that regard . And this doesn't remotely address any problem . It's just an attempt to create more, to try and bait the Russians into a knee jerk retaliation and create havoc on the international scene . Which seems to have been a failure too . Trying to deliberately wreak a trail of havoc on your way out
for others to clean up afterwards isn't statesman like behaviour in the slightest . It's just petty, weak , Ill thought out and ineffectual and a move that engenders zero respect . A hallmark of the entire Obama presidency when alls said and done .

Furthermore Obamas job as CinC of the worlds sole superpower was to ensure nobody would either dare or be physically capable of undermining an election . So either he's a complete bullshitter or a complete failure . This move doesn't remotely address any failure or any problem , it doesn't advance US interests in the slightest . In fact it harms them .

Obama knows Trump is a volatile individual . In the event of relations ever souring Obamas role as a statesman and former president whos dealt with Russia for years could be valuable in the future as a back channel or interlocutor. Moves like this completely rule that out, it demonstrates zero judgement and zero good faith . Just spite and malice and deliberate attempts to sour relations . He'll be just as shit an ex president as a sitting one .

 

[CRI]

"" Russia won’t expel any Americans in retaliation to US moves""

makes obama look a bit of a tool ...dunnit ?

seen elsewhere " when the opposition goes low , time to go high ...."

Or, perhaps a clever trap?

Senators McCain, Graham and now Rubio have come out strongly in favour of Obama's sanctions, leading the call for investigating Russian involvement in the elections. Will be hard for McCain, et. al to back down on this pledge. Hey, and even if the allegations were totally groundless, it's not like there aren't plenty of examples of lengthy congressional investigations based on very little evidence, right?

So, Trump takes office and has a choice. He could stick with Obama's expulsions and not oppose the investigation. But, that would piss the hell out of Putin and the kleptocrats in his own cabinet, who want sanctions lifted pronto and certainly don't want any investigations. I'm pretty sure there's a shit load of stuff they don't want potentially exposed. I can't imagine him sitting on his hands on this one.

Or, he could lift the sanctions, reinstate the diplomats and try to halt the investigation. This is clearly what Putin expects him to do, especially as he's not offering much in the way of retaliation. If Trump does this though, it would send a clear message that his allegiance is to the Russian leadership (either for personal financial gain, they're blackmailing him, or a bit of both) and not the US. His most fervent acolytes will be fine with this of course. But, could widen the fractures within the GOP in congress enough to support the push for Trump's impeachment by the House, then removal by the Senate.

Ball's in Trump's court.

 

[Miss Caphat]

First and foremost if there was a problem he should have proven it existed in the first place . He's demonstrably failed in that regard . And this doesn't remotely address any problem . It's just an attempt to create more, to try and bait the Russians into a knee jerk retaliation and create havoc on the international scene . Which seems to have been a failure too . Trying to deliberately wreak a trail of havoc on your way out
for others to clean up afterwards isn't statesman like behaviour in the slightest . It's just petty, weak , Ill thought out and ineffectual and a move that engenders zero respect . A hallmark of the entire Obama presidency when alls said and done .

Furthermore Obamas job as CinC of the worlds sole superpower was to ensure nobody would either dare or be physically capable of undermining an election . So either he's a complete bullshitter or a complete failure . This move doesn't remotely address any failure or any problem , it doesn't advance US interests in the slightest . In fact it harms them .

Obama knows Trump is a volatile individual . In the event of relations ever souring Obamas role as a statesman and former president whos dealt with Russia for years could be valuable in the future as a back channel or interlocutor. Moves like this completely rule that out, it demonstrates zero judgement and zero good faith . Just spite and malice and deliberate attempts to sour relations . He'll be just as shit an ex president as a sitting one .

"Furthermore Obamas job as CinC of the worlds sole superpower was to ensure nobody would either dare or be physically capable of undermining an election . So either he's a complete bullshitter or a complete failure . This move doesn't remotely address any failure or any problem , it doesn't advance US interests in the slightest . In fact it harms them"


Really, now? Don't you think that's just a wee bit over the top? Elections can / do get hacked. Shit happens. As far as I know Obama isn't responsible for waving a magic wand to eradicate any possible interference or tampering with anything.
Would you similarly surmise that it was a leader's own fault for getting assassinated because they hadn't put in place some sort of space-age magically infallible security?

 

[BemusedbyLife]

makes obama look a bit of a tool ...dunnit ?

It makes Putin look smart and he is, He surely must have figured out by now that IQ wise Trump compares to my Mum's Retriever but without the pleasant demeanour and also unlike the dog he easily bears grudges, It's in Putin interests to make Trump look good domestically in the short run at least but that there will be a price someday when it suits Vlad, the man knows how to play the long game

 

[brogdale]

Pinned as well!

 

[Casually Red]

"Furthermore Obamas job as CinC of the worlds sole superpower was to ensure nobody would either dare or be physically capable of undermining an election . So either he's a complete bullshitter or a complete failure . This move doesn't remotely address any failure or any problem , it doesn't advance US interests in the slightest . In fact it harms them"


Really, now? Don't you think that's just a wee bit over the top? Elections can / do get hacked. Shit happens. As far as I know Obama isn't responsible for waving a magic wand to eradicate any possible interference or tampering with anything.
Would you similarly surmise that it was a leader's own fault for getting assassinated because they hadn't put in place some sort of space-age magically infallible security?

I don't think any space age infallibility was required here . Elections certainly do get tampered with. The DNC nomination for example. If the people running the DNC hadn't been rigging the result in Clintons favour behind the American peoples backs there'd have been no dirt for anyone, Russians or otherwise, to expose in the first place . This allegation amounts to little more than "how dare they undermine our democracy by exposing our factions blatant undermining of our own democracy ". It's a smokescreen, a blatant distraction from their own fraud and corruption . Laughable stuff .

Secondly it was very much within Obamas power not to have a bad relationship with Russia . There's no doubt Clinton ...at the very least... overstepped the mark when she actively set out to support protests caling for Putins overthrow. Protests by groups in receipt of US funding and training . And protests they very much hoped would see regime change in Russia and their own puppets installed . We can see later on what transpired in Ukraine and the active role Clintons state department allies had there in the overthrow of the government and the selection of the new junta . The Russian view that Clinton , Nuland and co were attempting a similar putsch in Moscow a few years earlier is a pretty reasonable one under the circumstances . It's not paranoia by any means . And when one considers the outburst by close Clinton ally McCain, that he wanted to see Putin murdered in the same manner as Gadaffi..then it's taken pretty personally. Obama had the power to remove McCain et al, to censure and disavow the US from such ugly , warlike and murderous sentiments. Outrageous stuff .He did nothing so the Russians can have no other impression that the US administration literally wants them dead.

That stuff..and a lot of other shenanigans alongside it..gives the distinct impression the US play book is to come into a country as friends seeking good relations, infiltrate and infest all over the place and then actively peruse regime change . That's not conducive even remotely to good relations . All this could have been avoided by a little bit of common sense

 

[Casually Red]

Or, perhaps a clever trap?

Senators McCain, Graham and now Rubio have come out strongly in favour of Obama's sanctions, leading the call for investigating Russian involvement in the elections. Will be hard for McCain, et. al to back down on this pledge. Hey, and even if the allegations were totally groundless, it's not like there aren't plenty of examples of lengthy congressional investigations based on very little evidence, right?

So, Trump takes office and has a choice. He could stick with Obama's expulsions and not oppose the investigation. But, that would piss the hell out of Putin and the kleptocrats in his own cabinet, who want sanctions lifted pronto and certainly don't want any investigations. I'm pretty sure there's a shit load of stuff they don't want potentially exposed. I can't imagine him sitting on his hands on this one.

Or, he could lift the sanctions, reinstate the diplomats and try to halt the investigation. This is clearly what Putin expects him to do, especially as he's not offering much in the way of retaliation. If Trump does this though, it would send a clear message that his allegiance is to the Russian leadership (either for personal financial gain, they're blackmailing him, or a bit of both) and not the US. His most fervent acolytes will be fine with this of course. But, could widen the fractures within the GOP in congress enough to support the push for Trump's impeachment by the House, then removal by the Senate.

Ball's in Trump's court.

I think you might have a point there . That's certainly how Clinton, McCain and co will try and spin it . Only thing is though they've already spun Trump as the devil incarnate and it's had zero effect on him . Despite every accusation under the sun...much of it true...he still trounced the GOP and then trounced Clinton . This Russian agent stuff will be little more than karma for his birtherism . Doubt it'll be any more than a bad smell following him about like Obamas birth cert . And eventually only the preserve of loons .

 

[redsquirrel]

I'm pretty sure that CRI thinks class is some sort of quaint British custom defined by hat choice and accent and has nothing to do with economics.

He's been quite explicit that he/she sees it as simply another identity (while insisting he understands class in the UK). As seventh bullet has pointed out class has morphed into 'white working class', of course this is also the view of the BNP, National Front, UKIP, etc. Like CRI they don't see class as anything to do with the means of production but as simply an identity among other identities.

 

[seventh bullet]

Sorry pal, you've lost me. Can you start again? Ta.

This 'white working class' you constantly talk about. What does this identity consist of?

 

[redsquirrel]

Americans as people are different from folk in the UK - surely most people understand that. Things like culture, traditions, values and beliefs impact on their decisions. One example is how the American Dream bullshit functions to keep people striving, believing they can "better themselves" regardless of the odds. You don't get the degree of slating for "getting above your station" there.

Ignoring the moronic stereotypes ("getting above your station" FFS if that's your understanding of the UK after living here however many years I certainly wouldn't put any value into your understanding of the modern US, or anything else for that matter), perhaps these cultural differences have arisen because of the different emphasises in the material conditions of the two places (and vice versa).

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So when's the inquiry into 'foreign efforts to influence recent Presidential elections - from 2008 to the present' that Obama ordered due to report and what are its terms of reference?

All I can find is a brief statement that it's happening and will report 'in a few weeks'

Intelligence Community Statement on Review of Foreign Influence on U.S. Elections

What's it supposed to do now, given that the US intelligence community and sympathetic media have pre-empted the answer to at least the most topical of the questions it'll presumably be trying to answer?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Well they firmly deny any involvement in interfering .

Yeah, but it's like the Olympic doping thing. The Russians denied the doping till they were blue in the face.... until they admitted that it was true all along.

Maybe they're doing the same thing here?

i.e. lying?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So retaliatory measures would normally be in order after a move like this .

Another possibility is that they're guilty, and making retaliatory moves when they are in fact guilty, would only make a bad situation worse.

 

[Casually Red]

I'm going to follow putins lead here and not bite when confronted by idiocy

 

[J Ed]

Is that what this thread is about?
No?
Oh ok, let's move on then. Thanks

So that's a no then