Donald Trump, the road that might not lead to the White House!

[seventh bullet]

Why does it have to be either/or?

For folk on the left, the root of all oppression is class, using the white, working class male as their model (e.g. statements about the "working class" supporting Brexit and Trump.)

So, when women and men of colour, or women generally point out this ignores the systemic racism and sexism they face, it's "splained" they're mistaken. It really is about class and once the class system is smashed, racism, sexism and other oppression will vanish, too.

If they then suggest the movement do more to tackle sexism, racism, etc. in society or (dare they say it) the movement itself, they can expect to be ignored, told they're being divisive with their "identity politics," shunned and/or monstered. Think back, for example, to the SWP response to the accusation of rape against a senior member.

Expecting solidarity from folks who know inevitably they'll get thrown under the bus if/when it comes down to the "wider interests of the movement" is just shitty.

The alternative is a movement based on understanding of systemic oppression and privilege as intersectional.

Are there any ruling class people of colour?

 

[CRI]

Are there any ruling class people of colour?

The answer is yes, but that doesn't exempt them from being on the receiving end of racism, individually and structurally - Barack Obama, for example.

Thought this would have been slightly obvious.

 

[seventh bullet]

Sure, but that isn't what I was getting at.

I'm a white working class man, however I reject this identity 'white working class' (who decided this for me, how do they get to do it, and why?) That isn't because I don't think I'm white and working class.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Rupert Murdoch is a US citizen.

<snip>

I could as easily have said the Koch brothers.

I've made the point I was trying to make a bit more clearly here: The DNC "hack" was a leak from within the US and not Russia.

 

[butchersapron]

Why does it have to be either/or?

For folk on the left, the root of all oppression is class, using the white, working class male as their model (e.g. statements about the "working class" supporting Brexit and Trump.)

So, when women and men of colour, or women generally point out this ignores the systemic racism and sexism they face, it's "splained" they're mistaken. It really is about class and once the class system is smashed, racism, sexism and other oppression will vanish, too.

If they then suggest the movement do more to tackle sexism, racism, etc. in society or (dare they say it) the movement itself, they can expect to be ignored, told they're being divisive with their "identity politics," shunned and/or monstered. Think back, for example, to the SWP response to the accusation of rape against a senior member.

Expecting solidarity from folks who know inevitably they'll get thrown under the bus if/when it comes down to the "wider interests of the movement" is just shitty.

The alternative is a movement based on understanding of systemic oppression and privilege as intersectional.

20 000 posts all doing what this above fantasy says.

You really are like a mad liberal maoist.

 

[gosub]

 

[andysays]

20 000 posts all doing what this above fantasy says.

You really are like a mad liberal maoist.

But CRI has over 20,000 cat-pic-posts on the bandwidth thread (out of an overall total of 24,000), so he clearly knows better than anyone else what he's talking about



The rest of us better just step back and shut up until we can match his enviable level of political comment and analysis

 

[CRI]

Sure, but that isn't what I was getting at.

I'm a white working class man, however I reject this identity 'white working class' (who decided this for me, how do they get to do it, and why?) That isn't because I don't think I'm white and working class.

OK.

And, class and race function differently in the US in any case.

 

[CRI]

20 000 posts all doing what this above fantasy says.

You really are like a mad liberal maoist.

Hope you're not losing sleep over it.

 

[CRI]

But CRI has over 20,000 cat-pic-posts on the bandwidth thread (out of an overall total of 24,000), so he clearly knows better than anyone else what he's talking about

View attachment 98019

The rest of us better just step back and shut up until we can match his enviable level of political comment and analysis

I wouldn't let it bother you. Bit stalkerish on your part though. Please put me on ignore if my posts bother you so much. Have a nice day!

 

[maomao]

OK.

And, class and race function differently in the US in any case.

Does capitalism function differently in the US then? Is there a racial element to the relationship of the individual to the means of production?

 

[CRI]

Does capitalism function differently in the US then? Is there a racial element to the relationship of the individual to the means of production?

Capitalism isn't the only influence on people. History, culture, values, faith, all different in America. There is no "British Dream" like there is the "American Dream," which is baloney, but still a very strong motivating factor.

 

[J Ed]

Capitalism isn't the only influence on people. History, culture, values, faith, all different in America. There is no "British Dream" like there is the "American Dream," which is baloney, but still a very strong motivating factor.

Does anyone else get the strong impression that CRI doesn't actually believe in or think anything much at all? All that bluster in defence of.. nothing much other than their right to a particular form of self expression.

 

[seventh bullet]

OK.

And, class and race function differently in the US in any case.

How does capitalism operate differently in the US? I'd like to know more about what you posted yesterday as well, about the 'left' (which personally I am put off by) and working class people. I'm curious about the supposed (and mostly negative) attributes of an essentialised and racialised identity given to me and others like me from on high.

 

[andysays]

I wouldn't let it bother you. Bit stalkerish on your part though. Please put me on ignore if my posts bother you so much. Have a nice day!

 

[maomao]

Capitalism isn't the only influence on people. History, culture, values, faith, all different in America. There is no "British Dream" like there is the "American Dream," which is baloney, but still a very strong motivating factor.

And what have any of them other than capitalism got to do with the distribution of economic and political power?

 

[Yossarian]

But CRI has over 20,000 cat-pic-posts on the bandwidth thread (out of an overall total of 24,000), so he clearly knows better than anyone else what he's talking about

View attachment 98019

The rest of us better just step back and shut up until we can match his enviable level of political comment and analysis

Don't be a snob.

 

[J Ed]

I like cat pics

 

[CRI]

My cat looks better in clothes, so there.

 

[CRI]

How does capitalism operate differently in the US? I'd like to know more about what you posted yesterday as well, about the 'left' (which personally I am put off by) and working class people. I'm curious about the supposed (and mostly negative) attributes of an essentialised and racialised identity given to me and others like me from on high.

Americans as people are different from folk in the UK - surely most people understand that. Things like culture, traditions, values and beliefs impact on their decisions. One example is how the American Dream bullshit functions to keep people striving, believing they can "better themselves" regardless of the odds. You don't get the degree of slating for "getting above your station" there.

I'm not too sure what you mean about the "essentialised and racialised identity" bit. Do you mean white people shouldn't be called white?

 

[CRI]

And what have any of them other than capitalism got to do with the distribution of economic and political power?

Take it you've never been to one of those mega churches where people empty their wallets into the plate and vote how their preacher tells them to.

 

[andysays]

Don't be a snob.

Is it being a snob to point out that contrary to CRI's repeated assertions on this thread that he knows better than almost everyone else, simply on the basis that he was brought up in the US, he appears to have no genuine analysis of or longterm engagement with the issues he's reducing to simplistic kneejerk homilies, while he dismisses the contribution that others with an established history of grappling with complex issues both here and in the wider world as racists and misogynists because they don't swallow his trite nonsense whole, and that his major contribution to this forum, in contrast is posting thousands upon thousands of pictures of cats?

 

[seventh bullet]

Americans as people are different from folk in the UK - surely most people understand that. Things like culture, traditions, values and beliefs impact on their decisions. One example is how the American Dream bullshit functions to keep people striving, believing they can "better themselves" regardless of the odds. You don't get the degree of slating for "getting above your station" there.

I'm not too sure what you mean about the "essentialised and racialised identity" bit. Do you mean white people shouldn't be called white?

You know that's not what I mean. Why the avoidance of elaborating on what you meant earlier?

 

[J Ed]

CRI is echoing the sort of liberal nonsense that some Americans like to believe about the US being a less 'class-ridden' society than Britain which is odd in a country in which social mobility if anything has gone into reverse, with life expectancy of poor white Americans also going into reverse. Basically unheard of in developed countries outside of perhaps the USSR during Perestroika. Anyone who thinks that even the behaviourist interpretation of class through cultural class indicators is absent in the US can clearly see that that is not the case as a result of coverage of the election.

Check this stuff out, it's a paragraph or two away from phrenology, uses tropes (broken families, etc) more commonly aimed at working-class black Americans and takes aim at the white working-class. This is from a right-wing publication.

Chaos in the Family, Chaos in the State: The White Working Class’s Dysfunction

What about the Clinton press?

Be happy for coal miners losing their health insurance. They're getting exactly what they voted for

 

[maomao]

Take it you've never been to one of those mega churches where people empty their wallets into the plate and vote how their preacher tells them to.

CRI is echoing the sort of liberal nonsense that some Americans like to believe about the US being a less 'class-ridden' society than Britain which is odd in a country in which social mobility if anything has gone into reverse, with life expectancy of poor white Americans also going into reverse. Basically unheard of in developed countries outside of perhaps the USSR during Perestroika. Anyone who thinks that even the behaviourist interpretation of class through cultural class indicators is absent in the US can clearly see that that is not the case as a result of coverage of the election.

Check this stuff out, it's a paragraph or two away from phrenology, uses tropes (broken families, etc) more commonly aimed at working-class black Americans and takes aim at the white working-class. This is from a right-wing publication.

Chaos in the Family, Chaos in the State: The White Working Class’s Dysfunction

What about the Clinton press?

Be happy for coal miners losing their health insurance. They're getting exactly what they voted for

I'm pretty sure that CRI thinks class is some sort of quaint British custom defined by hat choice and accent and has nothing to do with economics.

 

[gosub]

I'm pretty sure that CRI thinks class is some sort of quaint British custom defined by hat choice and accent and has nothing to do with economics.

Check your privilege. Some people can't afford expensive hats.

 

[maomao]

Check your privilege. Some people can't afford expensive hats.

You'll have to excuse me. I must put my flat cap on and go out to buy some dripping to put on my bread.

 

[CRI]

Is it being a snob to point out that contrary to CRI's repeated assertions on this thread that he knows better than almost everyone else, simply on the basis that he was brought up in the US, he appears to have no genuine analysis of or longterm engagement with the issues he's reducing to simplistic kneejerk homilies, while he dismisses the contribution that others with an established history of grappling with complex issues both here and in the wider world as racists and misogynists because they don't swallow his trite nonsense whole, and that his major contribution to this forum, in contrast is posting thousands upon thousands of pictures of cats?

This is a message board. Members can post what they like where they like so long as it's within site rules. I post articles I find interesting. I post my views and mostly try to give context for those views. If folks want to engage with my posts, fine. If not, also fine. No one makes anyone read, much less agree with anything I post. If someone gets so upset they feel inclined to launch into a personal diatribe, for fucksake, use the ignore button and chill.

Sure, I find it weird, and mildly amusing that when I post views/observations that come from my experience growing up in rural, working class, Midwest America, that some here consistently insist I don't know what I'm talking about. Folk with North American connections, not so much, even if they disagree with my views generally. No big deal in the grand scheme of things though.

 

[CRI]

You know that's not what I mean. Why the avoidance of elaborating on what you meant earlier?

Sorry pal, you've lost me. Can you start again? Ta.

 

[CRI]

This is getting hilarious now. So catty!