Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

A healthy party would have reacted to 2016 with a purge of everyone whose incompetence led to that disaster, reformed and come out better for the years ahead. They didn’t do that, and there’s precious little sign they will do it after this defeat either.

Biden at least worked with Bernie Sanders on a platform to unite the party instead of turning his back on Sanders' supporters:

The former Democratic primary rivals unveiled the members of their unity task forces in May, about a month after Sanders suspended his campaign and endorsed Biden. Each of the six task forces, focusing on climate change, criminal justice reform, the economy, education, health care and immigration included members picked by Biden and Sanders, as well as co-chairs selected by each man.

I don't think Harris did anything similar, maybe that's something she could have mentioned when she drew a blank after being asked if there would be any difference between her policies and Biden's
 
The Democrats didnt do anything wrong in their election campaign. What happened here is that the USA wanted fascism. Trump won every swing state. That is what they voted for. America has always been fascist.
 
Innocent, vulnerable and poor ( no money ) minorities are now going to be victimised by trumps nazi party, and they have control of all the USA political processes. This is a lot more serious than anyone is thinking it is. I have never seen a government party that is full of criminal, nasty bigoted fascists, like this one is, in my lifetime. The nearest one I can recall, which I am not old enough to see, but have, of course, read and and seen about it on the telly, was Hitlers party.
Everyone of them is wealthy, and never has to work for a living, and are spreading hate and nastiness all around the world.
 
Last edited:
When was it a three way fight?
For the last 30 years - Notes on Trump/MAGA 2024
If people don't want to vote that's their business and there are certainly many reasons for people to find the Democratic Party sickening - but the people claiming "both parties are as bad as each other" at this point either aren't paying attention or don't care about the marginalised groups Trump is intent on persecuting - and have also somehow failed to notice that we are experiencing a worsening environmental catastrophe that requires urgent action
Who's claiming that "both parties are as bad as each other"?
Matthew Lyons and other class struggle anti-racists have spent years trying to build working class resistance and opposing fascists and the hard right. If some of them don't see the point in voting Democrat (especially if they live in a safe seat), I'm certainly not going to criticise them.

The point is not that both parties are as bad as each other, but, using Smokeandsteam's analogy Trump is the symptom, the illness is liberal capitalism. If one disagrees with that position, fine. But to claim that those that hold it, when they've often been at the forefront of anti-fascist actions, don't care about marginalised groups is off.
It really didn’t move to the left.
Well as I said 'in some fashion', some of the shift was more image, much of the more worker supporting policies based on their own internal support for capitalism (Tooze's recent piece in the LRB is good on this), and yes the move to 'the left' was done via pressure from below (hence why the line simply insisting that people support the Democrats no matter what is problematic).
But even with all that the Biden presidency has probably been the most pro-worker presidency for many decades, certainly more so than either Clinton or Obama.
 
As the Black Rose/Rosa Negra put it The Ballot Box and Popular Power: Charting a Better Way Forward
Given present circumstances, we see debate on whether or not one should vote as a distraction, generating much heat but very little light. Those on the anti-capitalist left should not provide time, energy, or money to electoral candidates. Popular power lies outside the state, and it includes the power to impact and influence the state. We should work to develop and build that power by organizing and acting collectively. Beyond the importance of organizing at your workplace, apartment building, and neighborhood, here are five avenues of action for the present moment that are much more worthy of our time than canvassing for candidates.
The people are spending their time and efforts organising in their communities to focus on whether they vote of not is to the miss the point

EDIT: and a lot of that organising is going to be in opposition to the Democratic Party which is going to be repeatedly acting against them. If anyone had been involved in workplace or community organising much, most, of it has to be done in the face of actions from the Democratic of Labour Party. Look at the attacks the LP launched on the IWCA, or even Corbyn, Driscol, etc.
After being attacked day after day but by such parties I don't think it is too hard to understand why some people might be reluctant to vote for them
 
Last edited:
Well, of course oppose fascism/authoritarianism directly. Of course. But fascism doesn't equal Trump voters at all. It certainly includes the MAGA types and plenty others in his mad coalition, but reducing this down to his voters, which you've been arguing, is neither accurate nor helpful. However much we might want to gripe about them at the moment.

And it's not predominantly about focusing on the Dems as a party out of context, it's about the decades of neoliberalism that they have come to embrace. It's about the wider shift away from working class communities, which they do also embody. So, it's about building something different and, if you are into electoral politics, it does focus on what the Democrats do, where they organise and who they represent.
On your first point well I did say Trump supporters not voters for a reason. But I think the percentage of his voters that are more or less full MAGA is a lot more than people seem to think.

As for the second, I just don't see how posting it's the Democrats fault helps anything. It just sounds like an attack on their memebers and supporters and those are the people who will have to live through the next 4 years (and maybe more) the ones most at risk and the ones who have the right the feel the most angry, the most scared and who are least to blame for Trump winning. Black men and women are the only groups where the majority voting Democrat, and those aren't the people I feel like attacking right now. I'd rather direct my anger towards the rascists who voted Trump.

I know your problem is with the Democrat leadership but it doesn't sound like that. It sounds a lot like what you said I wss doing and lumping voters in with the hard core of MAGA. There is a lot to criticise the Democrat leadership, but I think we could do that without all the finger pointing at the Dems.
 
Is there a big difference in result between 'yes, get on with the genocide' and 'please don't do a genocide here have more weapons for the genocide'?
There is if one of those 2 options is also going to do a lot more to whip up rascism and Hatred against Muslim and Arab communities at home as well as lot more awful shit.
 
Who's claiming that "both parties are as bad as each other"?

Not people on here so much, but it's definitely something I've heard from plenty of Americans IRL, probably more so pre-Trump

That Black Rose article certainly leans into that attitude a bit with lines like this one on abortion: "Like the pre-Dobbs dynamic, most politicians are in practice happy to keep the controversy alive, all the better for fundraising and mobilizing their base while the rest of us pay the price"

It also devoted exactly two words to the climate crisis, those words being a passing mention of "climate crisis" - stunning how it's still a side issue at this point, maybe there should have been more Democratic outreach to reluctant voters along the lines of "put the other issues aside and treat this as a referendum on whether something should be done about this emergency"
 
Last edited:
I’m also wondering how long until the UN throws in the towel. Politically they are powerless and have been for decades, the only political power they had was when being used by the US as a stick to beat opponents.
I was trying to pinpoint the begining of the decline into sideshow the other day, and its either iraq or rwanda. LofN was the failure to stop italy invading ethiopia and deposing sellasi
 
On your first point well I did say Trump supporters not voters for a reason. But I think the percentage of his voters that are more or less full MAGA is a lot more than people seem to think.

As for the second, I just don't see how posting it's the Democrats fault helps anything. It just sounds like an attack on their memebers and supporters and those are the people who will have to live through the next 4 years (and maybe more) the ones most at risk and the ones who have the right the feel the most angry, the most scared and who are least to blame for Trump winning. Black men and women are the only groups where the majority voting Democrat, and those aren't the people I feel like attacking right now. I'd rather direct my anger towards the rascists who voted Trump.

I know your problem is with the Democrat leadership but it doesn't sound like that. It sounds a lot like what you said I wss doing and lumping voters in with the hard core of MAGA. There is a lot to criticise the Democrat leadership, but I think we could do that without all the finger pointing at the Dems.
It’s not that it’s the “Democrat’s fault”. That’s still an individualising formulation of the issue, like some people could have behaved differently and fixed it. It’s that the institutional manifestation of neoliberal capitalism inevitably produces certain conditions, from which populist reactionary politics are one distinctly plausible response. If you want to avoid that reactionary populism, you have to mitigate the conditions that produce it. Complaining about the reactionary effect might feel satisfying but it is simply useless. As useless as complaining about the ground rushing towards you when you’ve jumped off a cliff.
 
* sigh * The US has never actually wanted the complete overthrow of the Assad regime, during the Arab spring preferring to sidestep the 'red lines' that Obama stated would be the point at which there would be intervention. Remember that the US was quite happy to use the regime for 'black sites' in extraordinary rendition. The issue with Gabbard is that she has openly shown support for the regime despite their obvious war crimes and alliance/dependence on Russia.. I suppose really it's all of a piece with the ongoing war crimes of Israel....
So, expressing verbal support for a regime is worse than covertly supporting it
 
Wasn’t it the case that the dems used to be the party of the working class? Almost a definitive split, with a side helping of intelligencia and a smattering of urban elites? I.e that it was in your labour/union interests to vote them if you were a wage earner. But now it seems to have moved to the republican having thr momentum of the party of the working class (whilst selling them down the river of course). Similar patterns can be spotted here but less you’d like to think up North. I guess when you outsource so much to china etc then “class conciousness” is weakened in itself. So much has changed over the past 40 years in terms of understanding class-political affiliation, just as so much has changed in regards mass industrialised work forces. Neoliberalism and its constant urge toward atomisation and individualism. Trump I wouldn’t say (yet) is outright fascism but it’s certainly mask-off neoliberalism. Neoliberalism without the “well being spaces” and Converses. Simplistic twaddle I know but it does seem to me that the majority of working class voices I hear from America are all on the trump side of things.


In the US South the Democrats used to be the party of lynching and segregation abd in his younger days Biden was happy to collaborate with them.


"Mr Biden fondly recalled his working relationship after joining the Senate in the 1970s with two southern Democratic senators, Mississippi's James Eastland and Georgia's Herman Talmadge.

Mr Biden, 76, said at a fundraiser in New York City that Talmadge had called him "son" but never "boy", referring to how racist whites addressed black men at the time."

Former Klansman, Robert Byrd who remained as a Democratic Senator until 2010, so overlapping the Obama Presidency, saying why he no longer supported segregation. Black grandparents have as much right to ask for water as white grandparents, apparently.



Eastland talking to President Johnston about the three civil rights campaigners murdered in Mississippi
 
So, expressing verbal support for a regime is worse than covertly supporting it
Say rather inaction than actual covert support. To be clear as well the extraordinary rendition and black site arrangement was mainly part of the Bush era and with Assad's father. Later with the advent of the Arab spring the US refused to directly support the Syrian revolutionaries who, in the first instance were a civil movement because their aims were an anathema to the capitalist model so they did nothing even when Assad's forces gassed their own civilians. Gabbard, On the other hand has openly shown support for both Putin over Ukraine and Assad with the civil war.
 
The Democrats didnt do anything wrong in their election campaign. What happened here is that the USA wanted fascism. Trump won every swing state. That is what they voted for. America has always been fascist.
That being the case, why didn't America vote for a fascist in 2020? Or 2012, 2008, etc?

Given that in those elections a fascist didn't win, what is the difference between those elections and this one?
 
Say rather inaction than actual covert support. To be clear as well the extraordinary rendition and black site arrangement was mainly part of the Bush era and with Assad's father. Later with the advent of the Arab spring the US refused to directly support the Syrian revolutionaries who, in the first instance were a civil movement because their aims were an anathema to the capitalist model so they did nothing even when Assad's forces gassed their own civilians. Gabbard, On the other hand has openly shown support for both Putin over Ukraine and Assad with the civil war.
So Gabard was correct when she said that the regime of Assad is not a threat to the USA.
 
Thanks for this.... I am exhausted though and still cant work out what the three bits are...can someone post a list 123 what they are?
In very brief - that the conflict against fascism/populism is not 'left' vs 'right' but a three way conflict between
  • those that take an anti-fascist position based on (in a wide sense) class struggle and militancy
  • liberal capitalism, as via the state, establishment political parties, capital etc
  • the populist hard right / fascists, also often anti-state and anti-capital
Within each other those elements there are further divisions and oppositions of interests - well outlined in this book.
I'm off out in a minute to go the Leeds International film festival but will try to pull up some quotes when I get back

Lyon's has a pretty succinct summary of this position here
Three Way Fight is a project that promotes revolutionary anti-fascist analysis, strategy, and activism. Unlike liberal anti-fascists, we believe that “defending democracy” is an illusion, as long as that “democracy” is based on a socio-economic order that exploits and oppresses human beings. Global capitalism and the related structures of patriarchy, heterosexism, racial and national oppression represent the main source of violence and human suffering in the world today. Far right supremacism and terrorism grow out of this system and cannot be eradicated as long as it remains in place.

At the same time, unlike many on the revolutionary left, we believe that fascists and other far rightists aren’t simply tools of the ruling class. They can also form an autonomous political force that clashes with the established order in real ways, or even seeks to overthrow global capitalism and replace it with a radically different oppressive system. We believe that in this period fascism poses several different kinds of threats: fomenting physical attacks on oppressed communities, bolstering supremacist and authoritarian tendencies among mainstream conservatives and liberals, and—a threat often overlooked—exploiting popular grievances and mis-directing anti-elite, anti-system anger away from liberatory politics.

Leftists need to confront both the established capitalist order and an insurgent or even revolutionary right, while recognizing that these opponents are also in conflict with each other. The phrase “three way fight” is short hand for this idea (although in concrete terms there are more than three contending forces). Our work confronts complexities in the dynamics between these three poles that are often glossed over. We point out, for example, that repression isn’t necessarily fascist — anti-fascism itself can be a tool of ruling-class repression (as was the case during World War II, when anti-fascism was used to justify strike-breaking and the mass imprisonment of Japanese Americans, among other measures). And we warn against far-right efforts to build alliances with leftists as well as fascistic tendencies within the left (as when leftists promote conspiracy theories rooted in anti-Jewish scapegoating).

EDIT: the piece that stethoscope and I linked to places the above politics in the current context (well pre-election)
 
Last edited:
Innocent, vulnerable and poor ( no money ) minorities are now going to be victimised by trumps nazi party, and they have control of all the USA political processes. This is a lot more serious than anyone is thinking it is. I have never seen a government party that is full of criminal, nasty bigoted fascists, like this one is, in my lifetime. The nearest one I can recall, which I am not old enough to see, but have, of course, read and and seen about it on the telly, was Hitlers party.
Everyone of them is wealthy, and never has to work for a living, and are spreading hate and nastiness all around the world.
Thanks for writing this. I agree. There does need to be a coordinated effort to discredit far right ideology. I think we need to make efforts to support people who are doing this, and give anti-fascist actors platforms and respect. Respect can also mean paying people for their efforts. For too long people who warned about far right ideology have been written off as paranoid, or too extreme themselves. But how else are we going to deal with this other than to involve people who specialise in this topic?
 
reason the right will more the likely win the next us election.. they can pull together with one direction

whilst the left will still be infighting about who is to blame for losing this election :/
 
It's hard trying to work out which is worst/most dangerous. A broiling herd of wildebeest... of lunatics.
You'd think there will be horse trading as to which ones get through though, no, I suspect trump thinks he'll get them all. Fuck.
Continuing the herd of wildebeest analogy, amid all the concerns about gaetz and the rest, it's easy to forget rfk has pretty much admitted assaulting the baby sitter.
 
That being the case, why didn't America vote for a fascist in 2020? Or 2012, 2008, etc?

Given that in those elections a fascist didn't win, what is the difference between those elections and this one?
If you dont know why USA has just voted for a facist then you need to research.
 
I don't think Harris did anything similar, maybe that's something she could have mentioned when she drew a blank after being asked if there would be any difference between her policies and Biden's
She did at first when she won the nomination. She made speeches stressing union rights and shared a platform with Shawn Fain, the leader of the auto union, who endorsed her. Fain is the US equivalent of Mick Lynch. Could you imagine Starmer sharing a platform with Lynch?

But then she ended up on campaign tours with Liz Cheney.

Somewhere along the way, she got lost.

It appears that they got spooked by Trump calling her Commie Kamala. An example of Trump's crude tactics working perfectly?
 
STOP THE STEAL!

Nah, I don't have any illusions in Trump's respect for democracy or anything, but given that he was unable to successfully rig an election in 2020 while holding state power, it seems a bit of a stretch to suggest that he did successfully rig this year's, despite not having state power this time round.
 
If you dont know why USA has just voted for a facist then you need to research.
Ok, sure, can do, but I'm not really contesting that.

What I'm (genuinely) interested in is your take on why
America [didn't] vote for a fascist in 2020? Or 2012, 2008, etc?
given your assertion that
America has always been fascist

In your opinion, why did they "just" vote for a fascist*, this time, if they've always been fascist? What changed? What was it that stopped the USA electing a fascist before?



*and in 2016, I presume, unless we feel Trump wasn't yet a full-on fascist when he was elected the first time.
 
Ok, sure, can do, but I'm not really contesting that.

What I'm (genuinely) interested in is your take on why

given your assertion that


In your opinion, why did they "just" vote for a fascist*, this time, if they've always been fascist? What changed? What was it that stopped the USA electing a fascist before?



*and in 2016, I presume, unless we feel Trump wasn't yet a full-on fascist when he was elected the first time.
Research the way they have treated black and lgbtq people for starters.
 
Back
Top Bottom