Donald Trump - MAGAtwat news and discussion

[Yossarian]

A healthy party would have reacted to 2016 with a purge of everyone whose incompetence led to that disaster, reformed and come out better for the years ahead. They didn’t do that, and there’s precious little sign they will do it after this defeat either.

Biden at least worked with Bernie Sanders on a platform to unite the party instead of turning his back on Sanders' supporters:

The former Democratic primary rivals unveiled the members of their unity task forces in May, about a month after Sanders suspended his campaign and endorsed Biden. Each of the six task forces, focusing on climate change, criminal justice reform, the economy, education, health care and immigration included members picked by Biden and Sanders, as well as co-chairs selected by each man.

I don't think Harris did anything similar, maybe that's something she could have mentioned when she drew a blank after being asked if there would be any difference between her policies and Biden's

 

[Serene]

The Democrats didnt do anything wrong in their election campaign. What happened here is that the USA wanted fascism. Trump won every swing state. That is what they voted for. America has always been fascist.

 

[Serene]

Innocent, vulnerable and poor ( no money ) minorities are now going to be victimised by trumps nazi party, and they have control of all the USA political processes. This is a lot more serious than anyone is thinking it is. I have never seen a government party that is full of criminal, nasty bigoted fascists, like this one is, in my lifetime. The nearest one I can recall, which I am not old enough to see, but have, of course, read and and seen about it on the telly, was Hitlers party.
Everyone of them is wealthy, and never has to work for a living, and are spreading hate and nastiness all around the world.

 

[redsquirrel]

When was it a three way fight?

For the last 30 years - Notes on Trump/MAGA 2024

If people don't want to vote that's their business and there are certainly many reasons for people to find the Democratic Party sickening - but the people claiming "both parties are as bad as each other" at this point either aren't paying attention or don't care about the marginalised groups Trump is intent on persecuting - and have also somehow failed to notice that we are experiencing a worsening environmental catastrophe that requires urgent action

Who's claiming that "both parties are as bad as each other"?
Matthew Lyons and other class struggle anti-racists have spent years trying to build working class resistance and opposing fascists and the hard right. If some of them don't see the point in voting Democrat (especially if they live in a safe seat), I'm certainly not going to criticise them.

The point is not that both parties are as bad as each other, but, using Smokeandsteam's analogy Trump is the symptom, the illness is liberal capitalism. If one disagrees with that position, fine. But to claim that those that hold it, when they've often been at the forefront of anti-fascist actions, don't care about marginalised groups is off.

It really didn’t move to the left.

Well as I said 'in some fashion', some of the shift was more image, much of the more worker supporting policies based on their own internal support for capitalism (Tooze's recent piece in the LRB is good on this), and yes the move to 'the left' was done via pressure from below (hence why the line simply insisting that people support the Democrats no matter what is problematic).
But even with all that the Biden presidency has probably been the most pro-worker presidency for many decades, certainly more so than either Clinton or Obama.

 

[redsquirrel]

As the Black Rose/Rosa Negra put it The Ballot Box and Popular Power: Charting a Better Way Forward

Given present circumstances, we see debate on whether or not one should vote as a distraction, generating much heat but very little light. Those on the anti-capitalist left should not provide time, energy, or money to electoral candidates. Popular power lies outside the state, and it includes the power to impact and influence the state. We should work to develop and build that power by organizing and acting collectively. Beyond the importance of organizing at your workplace, apartment building, and neighborhood, here are five avenues of action for the present moment that are much more worthy of our time than canvassing for candidates.

The people are spending their time and efforts organising in their communities to focus on whether they vote of not is to the miss the point

EDIT: and a lot of that organising is going to be in opposition to the Democratic Party which is going to be repeatedly acting against them. If anyone had been involved in workplace or community organising much, most, of it has to be done in the face of actions from the Democratic of Labour Party. Look at the attacks the LP launched on the IWCA, or even Corbyn, Driscol, etc.
After being attacked day after day but by such parties I don't think it is too hard to understand why some people might be reluctant to vote for them

 

[emanymton]

Well, of course oppose fascism/authoritarianism directly. Of course. But fascism doesn't equal Trump voters at all. It certainly includes the MAGA types and plenty others in his mad coalition, but reducing this down to his voters, which you've been arguing, is neither accurate nor helpful. However much we might want to gripe about them at the moment.

And it's not predominantly about focusing on the Dems as a party out of context, it's about the decades of neoliberalism that they have come to embrace. It's about the wider shift away from working class communities, which they do also embody. So, it's about building something different and, if you are into electoral politics, it does focus on what the Democrats do, where they organise and who they represent.

On your first point well I did say Trump supporters not voters for a reason. But I think the percentage of his voters that are more or less full MAGA is a lot more than people seem to think.

As for the second, I just don't see how posting it's the Democrats fault helps anything. It just sounds like an attack on their memebers and supporters and those are the people who will have to live through the next 4 years (and maybe more) the ones most at risk and the ones who have the right the feel the most angry, the most scared and who are least to blame for Trump winning. Black men and women are the only groups where the majority voting Democrat, and those aren't the people I feel like attacking right now. I'd rather direct my anger towards the rascists who voted Trump.

I know your problem is with the Democrat leadership but it doesn't sound like that. It sounds a lot like what you said I wss doing and lumping voters in with the hard core of MAGA. There is a lot to criticise the Democrat leadership, but I think we could do that without all the finger pointing at the Dems.

 

[emanymton]

Is there a big difference in result between 'yes, get on with the genocide' and 'please don't do a genocide here have more weapons for the genocide'?

There is if one of those 2 options is also going to do a lot more to whip up rascism and Hatred against Muslim and Arab communities at home as well as lot more awful shit.

 

[Yossarian]

Who's claiming that "both parties are as bad as each other"?

Not people on here so much, but it's definitely something I've heard from plenty of Americans IRL, probably more so pre-Trump

That Black Rose article certainly leans into that attitude a bit with lines like this one on abortion: "Like the pre-Dobbs dynamic, most politicians are in practice happy to keep the controversy alive, all the better for fundraising and mobilizing their base while the rest of us pay the price"

 

[DotCommunist]

I’m also wondering how long until the UN throws in the towel. Politically they are powerless and have been for decades, the only political power they had was when being used by the US as a stick to beat opponents.

I was trying to pinpoint the begining of the decline into sideshow the other day, and its either iraq or rwanda. LofN was the failure to stop italy invading ethiopia and deposing sellasi

 

[kabbes]

On your first point well I did say Trump supporters not voters for a reason. But I think the percentage of his voters that are more or less full MAGA is a lot more than people seem to think.

As for the second, I just don't see how posting it's the Democrats fault helps anything. It just sounds like an attack on their memebers and supporters and those are the people who will have to live through the next 4 years (and maybe more) the ones most at risk and the ones who have the right the feel the most angry, the most scared and who are least to blame for Trump winning. Black men and women are the only groups where the majority voting Democrat, and those aren't the people I feel like attacking right now. I'd rather direct my anger towards the rascists who voted Trump.

I know your problem is with the Democrat leadership but it doesn't sound like that. It sounds a lot like what you said I wss doing and lumping voters in with the hard core of MAGA. There is a lot to criticise the Democrat leadership, but I think we could do that without all the finger pointing at the Dems.

It’s not that it’s the “Democrat’s fault”. That’s still an individualising formulation of the issue, like some people could have behaved differently and fixed it. It’s that the institutional manifestation of neoliberal capitalism inevitably produces certain conditions, from which populist reactionary politics are one distinctly plausible response. If you want to avoid that reactionary populism, you have to mitigate the conditions that produce it. Complaining about the reactionary effect might feel satisfying but it is simply useless. As useless as complaining about the ground rushing towards you when you’ve jumped off a cliff.